D&D 4E 4E No Focus

[Henry]

Sigh.....one big change is the continual patronizing tone any time someone questions the prevailing zeitgeist....Not what Enworld used to be.

Actually, I have a different take on this - when has ENWorld and every other PRG forum NOT adopted a patronizing tone when someone has a different opinion they see as wrong? As long as I've haunted these forums, the circles, and their actions, remain the same - just the names change. It's human nature.

As for the response - I'm with Alhazred - I see plenty of focus, and all of the core work was on making the math from levels 1-30 work. Now, the tweaking is being done to "reintroduce" some sacred cows, or more like "see if something that feels like the sacred cows can be reintroduced" built all on the base of that improved ( I would say "restored") framework.

Guys 3E sense of focus was The D20 Mechanics and simplified saving throws. the systems is robust, easy to use, and frankly can be simple to use even as a DM, if one throws slavish devotion to use all rules and balance the stats like an accountants book sheet.

The "slavish devotion" in my opinion happened to be more than 70% of the rulebooks - particularly a huge number of the spells and feats. What you're referring to is basically what someone worked up as MicroLite 20, under the OGL - not "3E + not being a rules slave."

In my experience 3E worked pretty well -- until you hit about 10th level. Then it started getting REAAALLLY hard to keep fun for the DM, and combats and scenarios became a tech race similar to the Soviet and American Cold War. Combat was over in 3 rounds or less, and those rounds were taking half an hour each to play out all the spells, multi-attacks, summoned creatures, dispel magics and disjunctions, etc.

 

[Insight]

I think of this...

You will pay for your lack of vision!

... when I read these posts.

 

[the Jester]

So you start off with focus, design time and playtesting, then immediately move to edition warring? THEN you complain when people disagree with your premise and you call them patronizing?

I guess this about sums it up: This thread seems to me pretty much like a bait and switch.

 

[Shroomy]

Wait, wasn't one of the biggest complaints about 4e was that it was extremely focused on a particular style of play, or did I just dream my past 2 years of Internet usage?

 

[AngryMojo]

As I understand it 4E is the most focused vision of D&D to date, being built almost entirely around the encounter.

It also codified and defined what the encounter is. Most of the big criticisms leveled towards 4e in this regard ignore the very large sections in the DMGs about building encounters that don't involve combat, and the ongoing work to make skill challenges something amazing. 4e is all about the encounter, true. 4e also defines the encounter as "Where the capabilities of the characters are put to the test and success or failure hang in the balance." There's still an ongoing idea that encounter means "beating up monsters."

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Designing a new edition of anything can be tricky. See this article on the Second System Effect. Overall, 4e had lofty goals and did pretty well at achieving them. Nonetheless, the new Essentials concepts seem much more like a natural outgrowth of 3e.

Having said that, I arrogantly and categorically dismiss the OP's original points. I value my standing on ENWorld too much to do otherwise.

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

I know many people are diehard 4E supporters

See my sig.

However, I'm a huge fan of D&D in general. I play Rules Compendium D&D/Labyrinth Lord/Tunnels & Trolls houseruled, make it up as you go play-by-email games with my oldest, best friends scattered across the globe.

I played D&D and ran 2nd throughout the '90s.

I took a break in the early '00s as my career started, and then found a 3.x game where I played my favorite PC of all time in a campaign from 1st to what would have been 20th in the next session but it was the worst week ever and the entire group disbanded. That character was Leibnitz Dalarum Neb Len Vanheddin Tikkchik fen Tikktikk of Reymix, gnome sorcerer.

And now I love 4E.

...but with the Essential line coming out.....this iteration of D&D just suffers from an overall lack of cohesive vision...

You are wrong.

4E is the most cohesive and most designed and developed of any version of D&D ever. In fact, that is probably the root cause of most people's dislike of the system. From the mechanics to the flavor to graphic design, if anything 4E is overproduced.

Talk about lack of a cohesive vision, ~ offensive religious expression deleted ~ TSR had two mostly incompatible versions of the same branded game on the shelves at once.

which coupled with a intensive release schedule is a detriment to the pocket book of the customer.

I'm on the record as calling Essentials "4E Director's Cut Remastered" and saying it's mostly a money grab.

But, to be fair, a lot of movies that came out early in the transition from VHS to DVD were poorly mastered. Many from that era have been rereleased to take advantage of the progression of technology. Case-in-point: Blade Runner.

It's not a perfect analogy. But the progress of technology applies to RPG design and development too. 4E was a great product when it came out. Tweaks have been made to clarify intent and correct bugs. None of these "Rules Updates" have changed the core of 4E for the worse. The most fundamental changes have been made to skill challenges and just recently the damage by level and monster creation tables.

And try to count just the 2nd Edition products that were put out, adjust for inflation, and watch your pocketbook/wife cry.

PHB 2 classes showed a refinement that I wished was in the PHB 1....something I feel might have been possible with more development time.

"As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time."

You have to start somewhere. Technology and progress march ever onward.

Overall I feel like, I am paying money for what has been an extended beta test.

How do you ever buy anything in the modern age? "Hey! This is a pretty great stove!" --five years pass-- "I wish my stove were more energy efficient/had bigger knobs and a more legible display/had a warming drawer/etc." "Hey! This is a pretty great central air conditioning unit!" --five years pass-- "I wish my central AC unit were more energy efficient/was a two-stage unit/was painted the color of my house or favorite college football team"

Now I like schools of magic....

Clearly you speak for yourself.

I like the ideas they are presenting...and growth is needed and to be expected.....

What is your point, again? You seem to have thought all growth should happen before the baby is born. "Congratulations! It's a 87-year-old man!" --mom and dad cry-- --87-year-old man dies in their arms-- --mom and dad cry--

but frankly more design time could have shook some of this out.

The Pathfinder model is something I expect will never be repeated again. It was a confluence of being in the right place at the right time, the existence of other revenue streams that subsidized the experiment, the lack of an existing product that could suffer an Osborne effect (or the willingness to sacrifice a child), and fanatical users that willingly put up with using an unfinished product.

There are plenty of criticisms to be thrown at WotC. People who have been following me know that I've lobbed plenty myself.

But if you're going to start this kind of thread at our favorite gaming forum, you need to come with more support and bigger guns.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

oops

 

[Plane Sailing]

Talk about lack of a cohesive vision, ~ offensive religious expression deleted ~ TSR had two mostly incompatible versions of the same branded game on the shelves at once.

You've got a bit of a habit of posting offensively. Dial it back and re-read the forum rules if you've got any doubt about what is considered appropriate, if you want to avoid suspension in the future.