Why does nobody complain about the monk?

[gamerprinter]

I think the monk is still too weak, another too weak class is the bard. I've got no complaints on the Paladin its better, and for Codzilla with the nerf of heavy armor he's better, but doesn't run in circles around the paladin.

GP

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

Depends how he's equipped/feated.

"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." (SRD) meaning HE can be enchanted/use augmentation crystals like any other fighter without the worry of dropping or having his weapon permanently Sundered.

Since he can be enchanted with weapon properties, is it unreasonable to presume he should likewise be able to do the same with armor/shield properties?

Equipment-wise, he's on par with the fighter.

However his base natural weapon damage improves over levels whereas the fighter's sword remains 1d6. However start taking Improved Natural Weapons once he reaches +4 bab to boost his base damage die progression - raising a pure 4th level monk from a base 1d8 x2 to 2d6 x2 before enchantments/modifiers.

Also, I think Mr. Jacobs has said that Improved Natural was never intended to be used w/ the Monks Unarmed Attack.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I have a monk in my game and he is by far the weakest character in the party. Granted, they are only 5th level, but he is not enjoying the class right now. He can't hit anything, does crappy damage when he does hit,everything always saves against stunning fist, and he has the lowest ac in the party except for the sorceror. But he can slow fall and he can move as well as the 2nd level barbarian henchman.

The monk has wonderful flavor and I want to love it, but I find it sadly underpowered.

 

[Kaisoku]

The monk takes far too many ability scores to be great at all the things he's supposed to be great at.

Want good defense? You'll need good Dex, Wis and Con.
Want good damage? You'll need good Str (and Dex if you go with weapon finesse).

A Fighter can focus on two ability scores and be awesome: Str and Con.
The fact that a Monk needs to have a good Wisdom score (to get his AC, Stunning Fist DC, Ki and a few class abilities all within the realm of "worth while"), makes for a hard class to build.
The fact that you probably need to focus on Dex to get a decent AC, which means you are likely going to have to give up on something somewhere to remain relevant, and give up some Strength.. and that 2d10 seems so far away, and not quite as big as before.

In PF, Bards, Rogues and Rangers get save or die attack abilities, as well as the Assassin, so the Monk isn't exactly unique in this aspect.

Until the APG and the brass knuckles, it was costly and limited to get weapon enhancements on unarmed strikes. And even with the brass knuckles, it removes some of the benefits of the unarmed strike (it can be sundered, only applies to that weapon and not "any limb/body part", etc).

Having lots of movement is great... until you realize that it is completely out of synch with his combat ability (flurry of blows has more attacks and a higher BAB, but requires a full attack, so no movement during the same round).

A lot of the abilities they get are just to make up for the fact that they aren't using regular equipment. While Pathfinder's Ki points really helped boost versatility, it doesn't really help that the Monk can jump 20 feet vertically at a level where people need flying...

They are certainly better off now than they were in 3.5e... but they are not game wrecking nonsense. Not even the theorycraft supports the overpowered slant, and actual playtesting reveals just how hard it is to pull off the stuff touted in theory.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

They are certainly better off now than they were in 3.5e... but they are not game wrecking nonsense. Not even the theorycraft supports the overpowered slant, and actual playtesting reveals just how hard it is to pull off the stuff touted in theory.

I haven't seen the PF monk in play, but I think it may actually be weaker than in 3E. They didn't really fix any of its problems, took away the single greatest thing 3E monks had going for them (ability to take Improved Natural Attack), and buffed other melee classes, especially the Paladin and Fighter, much much more noticeably, even though IMO monk was THE weakest core class in 3E.

 

[gamerprinter]

I've played one, the Ki Pool helps, but not much - monk is still pathetic.

If I limited it to Spring Attack and Stunning Fist or similar, I could cause some damage and not get killed, and I could run far and fast, but mostly, meh...

GP

 

[grizzo]

I haven't seen the PF monk in play, but I think it may actually be weaker than in 3E. They didn't really fix any of its problems, took away the single greatest thing 3E monks had going for them (ability to take Improved Natural Attack), and buffed other melee classes, especially the Paladin and Fighter, much much more noticeably, even though IMO monk was THE weakest core class in 3E.

Not if you take the dragonborn option from Races of the Dragon and Vow of poverty.

 

[renau1g]

Err, you're reading the rules wrong. It counts as weapon for spells and effects (Su, Ex, Sp) - so you can, say, cast magic weapon on it. But you can't slap +2 or flaming or viscous on your fists in 3.5ed. If that was the case, there would be one less problem with 3.5 monk.

Pathfinder APG fixes it by introducing brass knuckles, which are a monk weapon that scale with his unarmed damage, can be flurried and are a normal weapon that can be enchanted.

Funny enough this is how we solved the monk issue in 3e, back when I had a player who really wanted to play a monk for RP purposes but knew how much they sucked compared to the other classes. I suggested a set of brass knuckles and after competing in a Mortal Kombat-style tournament he won them as a "trophy". +1 flaming fist on one hand and he ended up getting a +1 cold (frost?) knuckles for the other. He was nick-named Icy Hot.

Not if you take the dragonborn option from Races of the Dragon and Vow of poverty.

Don't get me started on VoP.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Funny enough this is how we solved the monk issue in 3e, back when I had a player who really wanted to play a monk for RP purposes but knew how much they sucked compared to the other classes. I suggested a set of brass knuckles and after competing in a Mortal Kombat-style tournament he won them as a "trophy". +1 flaming fist on one hand and he ended up getting a +1 cold (frost?) knuckles for the other. He was nick-named Icy Hot.

All you needed to do was give a monk a simple item to enhance his unarmed strike like any other person can enhance their weapon at the regular costs, and the problem is "solved." Since the monk's entire body is a weapon and part of his singular "unarmed strike," I was always the most partial to making it a robe slot item.

Don't get me started on VoP.

I'll start. It's an extremely weak option for a monk along with basically every class, and even if it didn't cost two of your precious feats (it gives you free exalted feats back, but with only a few exceptions, exalted feats are garbage), I'd still not take it as a monk unless I expected the game to drastically deviate from the expected wealth by level (on the low end).

 

[jefgorbach]

Err, you're reading the rules wrong. It counts as weapon for spells and effects (Su, Ex, Sp) - so you can, say, cast magic weapon on it. But you can't slap +2 or flaming or viscous on your fists in 3.5ed. If that was the case, there would be one less problem with 3.5 monk.

Perhaps, but game-mechanically isnt "slapping a spell" onto an existing masterwork sword what gives it the +2 flaming wounding properties? Therefore the clearly(?) worded implication is monks should be allowed to permanently enchant their attack with the same abilities as other players such that +2 flaming wounding fists are legal per RAW provided the monk
has the resources and access to people with the correct spells, the same as any other player.

As I see it, the main difference is the monk has to be present throughout the enchantment process instead of simply wandering into the local Magic Mart unlike most fighters/etc.