Why does nobody complain about the monk?

[xXxTheBeastxXx]

I've looked to see if this topic was covered, but didn't find anything. I'm a gamer who came from 3.5 and always wondered...what the hell's up with the monk? How does a class get away with 7 attacks, 2d10 unarmed damage, 90+ foot movement speed, a minimum of +5 to their AC (plus wisdom, and because of that, I don't think you can bitch about lack of armor), three high saving throws, the ability to understand and speak any language, the ability to slow fall any distance, a ki pool that grants you a plethora of abilities, a self-healing ability, near-immortality, and Quivering Palm: one of the few (especially few in PF) save or die abilities.

Why does nobody complain about this? It seems that people all whine about CoDzilla (which can be nasty, I admit), whilst ignoring the Monk. I don't think it even needs a -zilla at the end. It's bad enough on its own.

Also the Paladin.

-The Beast

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I can't help but think this is a trolling attempt...

But to answer your question, no one here complains about the monk because the people on this forum have actually seen the monk in play.

 

[Gorbacz]

Because the Monk is weak

In 3.5, Monk was a joke class. His flurry attack bonus and damage couldn't at any rate get anywhere near an optimized Fighter, mostly due to inability to use any serious magic weapon (and in consequence, overcome any serious DR). His speed and uber jumping becomes irrelevent the moment fly/boots of flying enter the scene, and the only thing he was really good at was grappling casters before they get a chance.

Immortality, tiny self-healing, slow fall and speaking any language are very fun and flavorful, except they don't do you much good if a dragon is trying to eat your head.
Now, PF kinda fixed some problems. The weapon situation was finally fixed (brass knuckles from APG), the Monk archetypes are really nice, and there are several new monk-friendly feats. So you can say that in PF the Monk finally becomes game-worthy.

 

[Cor_Malek]

And paladins would be nice if not for the existence of clerics, who can do all they can + more, and better. A melee optimized cleric fights better than an optimized paladin and he can still heal and buff others. Hence, no one claims paladin to be overpowered.

Not to mention that the very point of CoDzilla is not only being better at X than characters supposedly great at it (ie: wizards by default, and clerics with help of wands - can emulate about every "special" ability of monk), but at the end of the day - he's still good at his own role.

Are we done here?

 

[Gorbacz]

Actually, the Cleric > Paladin point was valid for 3.5, but isn't for Pathfinder. Pathfinder Paladins are simply awesome and are stepping on the Cleric's toes in the healing department (not to mention leaving them in dust in the melee role). Pre-smite errata the Paladin was simply too good to be true. Now it's just good to be true. Best class update in PF, hands down.

Now, Monk ...

 

[Kaiyanwang]

I have a monk player now in my current campaing. Level 12. Does fine, does not beat enemies like a fighter, but mobility, saves and special things make him flavourful and useful.

PF fixed some of the issues (level to CMB is a great thing).

The class is indeed far from being overpowered. Is not even weak, I found that people that find it weak are those who would play it like a barbarian or a fighter.

 

[jefgorbach]

Depends how he's equipped/feated.

"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." (SRD) meaning HE can be enchanted/use augmentation crystals like any other fighter without the worry of dropping or having his weapon permanently Sundered.

Since he can be enchanted with weapon properties, is it unreasonable to presume he should likewise be able to do the same with armor/shield properties?

Equipment-wise, he's on par with the fighter.

However his base natural weapon damage improves over levels whereas the fighter's sword remains 1d6. However start taking Improved Natural Weapons once he reaches +4 bab to boost his base damage die progression - raising a pure 4th level monk from a base 1d8 x2 to 2d6 x2 before enchantments/modifiers.

 

[Gorbacz]

Err, you're reading the rules wrong. It counts as weapon for spells and effects (Su, Ex, Sp) - so you can, say, cast magic weapon on it. But you can't slap +2 or flaming or viscous on your fists in 3.5ed. If that was the case, there would be one less problem with 3.5 monk.

Pathfinder APG fixes it by introducing brass knuckles, which are a monk weapon that scale with his unarmed damage, can be flurried and are a normal weapon that can be enchanted.

 

[xXxTheBeastxXx]

I can't help but think this is a trolling attempt...

But to answer your question, no one here complains about the monk because the people on this forum have actually seen the monk in play.

Sorry, not an attempt to troll. I was just looking at the monk from a technical standpoint which, apparently, I shouldn't have. You said that no one complains because they've seen it in play. I suppose the problem I've had is that everyone in my troupe saw the monk's abilities as overpowered and didn't ever want to play one.

Sorry for the confusion.

-The Beast

 

[Gorbacz]

Just looking at abilities and the level progression table tells very little about the class. A Wizard takes his power from the spell list, and the Fighter draws his strength from feats, weapon enchantments and dozens of Small Things that add up to form his respectable damage potential.