Save or Die: Yea or Nay?

[Hussar]

Fair enough Ariosto. And how many of those magic users did DM's give Sleep?

I'm willing to bet, very, very few.

And, even if it was a lot, it's a style of play that I would never want to bring to the table again. "Roll, roll roll, poof you all die. No save. Roll up new characters" is very poor play.

 

[Reynard]

Fair enough Ariosto. And how many of those magic users did DM's give Sleep?

I'm willing to bet, very, very few.

And, even if it was a lot, it's a style of play that I would never want to bring to the table again. "Roll, roll roll, poof you all die. No save. Roll up new characters" is very poor play.

It seems like poor play because it is completely decontextualized -- and in RPGs, perhaps moreso than not just any other sort of game, but any other sort of entertainment, context is EVERYTHING, because, really, it's all there is outside some rules (which are themselves highly contextual).

Roll a die; you failed, you're dead. That *is* poor play. It would be especially poor play in, say, a board game. But that's not how the game works -- especially when you are talking about older editions. Context -- when does the encounter occur? how? why? under what circumstances? at how many feet? who's surprised? and on and on and on -- means everything, and context is largely in the hands of the DM -- you know, the guy who the wikingest hat viking hat DM of all (Gygax) told to not be a jerk about random encounters and to throw out random encounters that make no sense. This whole line of argument that a random encounter with a medusa is going to result in a TPK is supremely decontextualized from what happens at an actual table during actual play, so much so as to be meaningless.

In reality, SoD encounters happen, and so do TPKs. But far more important is that they have the potential to happen. That potential is a piece of the context that drives play and allows for the SoD encounter -- even the TPK -- to be a good, memorable, and fun thing.

 

[GregChristopher]

By the way, deciding that characters must face only challenges that they can reasonably expect to defeat is arbitrary. "Arbitrary" means a discretionary choice; it does not mean "randomly generated."

Methinks you need to use dictionary.com

Arbitrary simply means a decision not ground in reason. It could actually be random. It might not be though.

If you sat down at a board game, rolled dice and whoever got the highest result won, that would be arbitrary. It would also be arbitrary if one person just picked a winner without any criteria to make that judgement.

And when did I say anything about facing challenges you can reasonably expect to defeat?

 

[Ariosto]

"Roll, roll roll, poof you all die. No save. Roll up new characters" is very poor play.

Uh, yeah. Most players develop some skill, though -- some halfway decent play -- rather than dump 90 characters of 2nd level down the drain while getting all bent out of shape in worry over the cockatrice they never meet.

The same strategy and tactics should be as effective versus your by-the-book 3e Medusa.

 

[The Shaman]

Methinks you need to use dictionary.com

Okay.

–adjective
1. subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion: an arbitrary decision.

And that's how I used it.

Arbitrary simply means a decision not ground in reason. It could actually be random. It might not be though.

That's one usage, but not the only one, and not the primary one.

Per your source, of course.

If you sat down at a board game, rolled dice and whoever got the highest result won, that would be arbitrary. It would also be arbitrary if one person just picked a winner without any criteria to make that judgement.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret: every rule for every game ever created is arbitrary.

Hint: Go back and re-read the quoted definition.

And when did I say anything about facing challenges you can reasonably expect to defeat?

You didn't. I did.

Suffice it to say that I don't share your concept of what makes for a good "social contract."

 

[GregChristopher]

I'm going to let you in on a little secret: every rule for every game ever created is arbitrary.

This is ridiculous. If you truly believe this, then everything ever made is arbitrary and the word has no meaning at all.

 

[Ariosto]

Google

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrariness

I'm going to let you in on a little secret: every rule for every game ever created is arbitrary.

No. In fact, games in the field from which D&D arose -- wargames -- very often have rules based on reason, derived systematically from principles mapping a "simulation" to real-world phenomena (even with quite direct statistical correlations to empirical data).

 

[The Shaman]

This is ridiculous. If you truly believe this, then everything ever made is arbitrary and the word has no meaning at all.

Re-read the sentence with a substitution for arbitrary: "Every rule for every game ever created is subject to individual will or judgment without restriction (or) contingent solely upon one's discretion."

That includes rules designed to create a rigorous simulation, Ariosto. Every game designer makes discretionary decisions on what to abstact and how much to abstract it. Those decisions are arbitrary. That doesn't mean they are made without regard to reason.

Sorry, guys, I know how you want to use this word, but it doesn't mean what you think it does. It's a very common mistake.

 

[Piratecat]

When you get down to pederasty -- no, wait! Pedantry! When you get down to pedantry and snide swipes about dictionary definitions, it's almost time to close the thread. What do you say we get it back on track instead?*

Thanks.

* Not actually a request, and not actually optional.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Sorry, guys, I know how you want to use this word, but it doesn't mean what you think it does. It's a very common mistake.

My OED disagrees, and so do I:

adj
1. based on random choice or personal whim
2. (of power or a ruling body) autocratic
3. [Mathematics] (of a constant or other quality) of unspecified value

I think you know the context it was used in.

Sep, we cross posted, but I'd like the dictionary definition nonsense to end here, please. ~ PCat