D&D 4E 4e and reality

Hussar

Legend
Exactly - which is why the game should be run as makes sense and not as the rules say.

Unfortunately, this isn't true at all. The rules are presented as more sacrosant in 4e. When various conditions don't make sense you're encouraged to follow the rules not common sense. When in previous editions it was considered normal that odd "powers" might not work as expected (say, trip on a gelatinous cube) or at all, now players are encouraged to feel entitled for their powers to work as written.
/snip

Swimming upthread a ways, but, I thought I'd point this one out.

Skip Williams would like to have a word with you. :) The Sage Advice column in Dragon (where the 3e FAQ's are generally drawn from) during 3e had all sorts of these sorts of things. And the answer was, ignore "realism" and go with what the effect says.

For example, if I cast Shocking Grasp and hit a grappling monster while I'm standing in a puddle of water, I don't fry my buddy or myself. All the damage goes directly to the target, physics be damned. It's the same logic that gives us horizontal lightning bolts. (never mind lightning bolts that bounce )
 

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Hussar

Legend
While I haven't yet run into the grappling swarm, I did run into Bull rushing a swarm of rats in our last 4e game.

We were trapped in a barn, swarms of rats and were-rats were outside, pounding on the walls trying to get in. Total zombie horror scene. Loving it greatly.

Swarm of rats manages to break through the wall near(ish) my character. I ask the Dm if I can bull rush a swarm. We're all still very new to the system, so, we go hunting through the rules briefly and can't really find anything. So, I said to the DM, "I pick up a board, rush at the rats, forcing them back, does that do it for you?"

"Yup."

So, I bull rushed the rats back out of the barn, and barricaded the breach in the wall with my plank.

What's wrong with that?
 

Imaro

Legend
I think we're well into mutually exclusive definitions here. i.e. "You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means." (No offense intended, just that we're defining things differently).

D&D has always been (at least since 2e) packed to the gills with mythic fantasy. Once you get a few levels under your belt, D&D has always been a lot more High Magic and Myth than swords and sorcery. The magic items alone, which are about as core to D&D as you can get, have long pushed mythology straight into the forefront of the game.

If 2e had been Swords and Sorcery, my Fighter's effectiveness would have been defined by his skills, not his equipment. I always felt way more like Perseus than Fafhrd.

If you believe this... you should really read some Moorcock... Corum, Elric, Hawkmoon and so on were all S&S heroes with items of imense power.
 

Mallus

Legend
Taken from the 2e PHB

"There are many famous fighters from legend: Hercules, Perseus, Hiawatha, Beowulf, Siegried, Cuchulain, Little John, Tristand and Sinbad.

......

Your fighter could be modeled after any of these...."
I was going to mention this. Back as far as 2e D&D has conflated the martial and the mythological.

The adventures of Cialis the staff ranger...
His animal companion is a bathtub!

But in these games it tends to be that the (re)flavouring happens once, at the character build stage, whereas 4e contemplates it being done from moment to moment. I think it is this extra aspect, of no fixed relationship between mechanics and gameworld even for a given PC's power, that some (not me) object to.
Good point, though for me the frequency with which the (re)flavoring occurs is less important than the way these systems offer a new kind of mapping between the fiction and the mechanics.

Also, my experiences with 4e are, while it may occasionally takes heroic feats of exposition to make the various powers make narrative sense, for the most part the relationship between the game world and the characters powers, between the rules and the fiction are fairly stable. The inconsistencies which do crop up in no way undermines the believability of our campaign, such as it is.
 

While I haven't yet run into the grappling swarm, I did run into Bull rushing a swarm of rats in our last 4e game.

We were trapped in a barn, swarms of rats and were-rats were outside, pounding on the walls trying to get in. Total zombie horror scene. Loving it greatly.

Swarm of rats manages to break through the wall near(ish) my character. I ask the Dm if I can bull rush a swarm. We're all still very new to the system, so, we go hunting through the rules briefly and can't really find anything. So, I said to the DM, "I pick up a board, rush at the rats, forcing them back, does that do it for you?"

"Yup."

So, I bull rushed the rats back out of the barn, and barricaded the breach in the wall with my plank.

What's wrong with that?

Nothing at all, it is exactly what I'm talking about.

@DS, you are just WAY too hung up on rules. Your objections are mole hills, they are just trivial.

Not only that but 1st level heroes aren't YET mythic. Sure, you want your level 25 bard to make stones refuse to hit him that's great. At level 1? I think there needs to be a sense of progression here. Epic tier is a different beast from heroic tier. The sense of progression from one to the other is a big part of the game. Heck mechanically there really isn't THAT much difference between tiers. It is all about the way the characters progress and how the world they live in works differently for the epic mythical hero than it does for his level 1 heroic tier incarnation.

The way this kind of progression works out is going to feel a bit different for a wizard than a fighter but in both cases they probably have to climb up the hill at level 1 to get the archer and at level 30 they may well be able to pick up the hill and knock him down.

I think maybe people are missing the point. You can have both a sense of a coherent world that works by rules AND all the craziness you want. This isn't about putting a hammer down on this that or the other character for arbitrary reasons. This is about being able to portray a living world with depth and some degree of consistency that isn't based in game rules but in how the WORLD works, which is the province of the DM. Rules will ALWAYS be secondary in that equation. They are a convenience. You can rail against the unfairness of your grabby fighter having problems with a swarm but really I can assure you in our group at least you'd get zero sympathy on that score from the other players.

If I want rules that are rigidly adhered to no matter how lame the story turns out as a result I can boot up pretty much any old CRPG or go play WoW. This is D&D, the whole point is that world is brought to life around you. Any argument that misses that is missing the whole point of TT RPGs.
 

fjw70

Adventurer
Look.

The martial power source allows for the following things, explicitly:

You could grow to twice your size permanently.

You could die, and reappear right where you fell, out of thin air, ready to do battle immediately.

You could die, go to whatever hell you were destined to go to, and simply get up and walk out and be back within a day with nothing but an interesting story of your journey.

Could you site sources for these? It's not that I don't believe you. I am just curious about them.

I assume these things are Paragon and Epic tier stuff. I have only played Heroic so far.
 


Aegeri

First Post
I still think it's a shame we can't at least try for both - but this sums up this thread for me.

When I think about the editions of DnD I enjoyed most, 1st, 2nd and 4th edition I realize that they do things that are distinctly illogical a lot of the time from a "reality" point of view. 3rd edition tried to do a lot more, for example the inability of rogues to gain sneak attack damage against undead, plants and constructs for example was logical. When I first played 3rd edition, I thought that was a fantastic and logical addition to the game, because it just made sense in the end and supported the concept that dead things didn't have anything truly "vital" to attack anymore.

Over time running 3E I noticed that the guy I had in my group who played rogues/thieves since 1st edition had absolutely zero fun because he was utterly useless 90% of the time in my undead heavy campaign - while spellcasters were anti-everything can openers and the fighter wasn't penalized any while we're at it - I started realizing something wasn't right here.

This is ultimately why I like 4E, because I prefer conditions to be universal and exemptions to be just that - not something that is normal or even based on a racial trait. It's just something that fits that monster specifically and makes it unique/interesting. If you can't knock something prone, it is because it's a particularly significant monster - not just some creature type we've determined should be immune. This means powers can be designed and work consistently over the whole game. Rather than needing to note their numerous deficiencies when you have different monsters.

This is why we bring up the grapple fighter, when you start ruling a bunch of stuff ceases to be grabbed you make an entire interesting, balanced and fun build in 4E absolutely useless. I mean why stop with swarms? Insubstantial creatures? Creatures that can phase? Creatures that are significantly bigger than you are? And such forth.

Realism doesn't go well with balanced rules IMO. I prefer consistent rules that make for a fun game, over "fluff based" rules that make someone wonder why they bothered turning up to DnD that night as they're completely useless.
 

If you believe this... you should really read some Moorcock... Corum, Elric, Hawkmoon and so on were all S&S heroes with items of imense power.
I'm really not a fan of Moorcock, so I didn't think about him. But on reflection I'd have to say that Moorcock is largely outside my personal preferences or even my personal definition of Sword and Sorcery. I'm more inclined towards "Swords Against Wizardry" (as a concept as well as a title), where he's more Sword/Sorcery, in that there's way too much Sorcery in the Sword.
 

When I think about the editions of DnD I enjoyed most, 1st, 2nd and 4th edition I realize that they do things that are distinctly illogical a lot of the time from a "reality" point of view. 3rd edition tried to do a lot more, for example the inability of rogues to gain sneak attack damage against undead, plants and constructs for example was logical. When I first played 3rd edition, I thought that was a fantastic and logical addition to the game, because it just made sense in the end and supported the concept that dead things didn't have anything truly "vital" to attack anymore.

Over time running 3E I noticed that the guy I had in my group who played rogues/thieves since 1st edition had absolutely zero fun because he was utterly useless 90% of the time in my undead heavy campaign - while spellcasters were anti-everything can openers and the fighter wasn't penalized any while we're at it - I started realizing something wasn't right here.

This is ultimately why I like 4E, because I prefer conditions to be universal and exemptions to be just that - not something that is normal or even based on a racial trait. It's just something that fits that monster specifically and makes it unique/interesting. If you can't knock something prone, it is because it's a particularly significant monster - not just some creature type we've determined should be immune. This means powers can be designed and work consistently over the whole game. Rather than needing to note their numerous deficiencies when you have different monsters.

This is why we bring up the grapple fighter, when you start ruling a bunch of stuff ceases to be grabbed you make an entire interesting, balanced and fun build in 4E absolutely useless. I mean why stop with swarms? Insubstantial creatures? Creatures that can phase? Creatures that are significantly bigger than you are? And such forth.

Realism doesn't go well with balanced rules IMO. I prefer consistent rules that make for a fun game, over "fluff based" rules that make someone wonder why they bothered turning up to DnD that night as they're completely useless.

2 things strike me each time I hear this. First is that the whole "my grabby fighter will be worthless" is just overblown. In fact it was just an easy example that everyone already had in mind. We could easily talk about ANY build of any class in this vein. You can see where the reductio ad absurdum comes in here, if there are a few times when each character's specific shtick is thwarted then they're worthless? I guess ALL THE BUILDS IN THE GAME are worthless then. Obviously there is a serious flaw with this logic...

Secondly we aren't talking about something that happens ALL THE TIME. You're entirely correct, 4e has cut way back on the "it is immune to X just because we think that makes sense" thing. However, they haven't entirely, by any means, eliminated these kinds of things. They're not just annoying badwrongfun either, there is actually a good reason to have them. They allow different monsters to be more unique and interesting. What was wrong with 3e's "you may not backstab undead" was it was WAY too broad. Sure it made undead 'different', except undead are all over the place so they really didn't need a way for them ALL to be unique together. It is much more interesting if different monsters have different quirks. So big deal if swarms (a very rare monster type) can't usually be grabbed? It isn't even a blanket proscription.

As for the 'it will just spread like a virus throughout the game', meh. There is already a rule that you can't grab anything more than one size category larger than yourself anyway for instance, so this is hardly a big concern in that specific case. It isn't really clear whether a phasing creature can or cannot simply escape a grab, but there's no reason to suppose it can since it actually can't move through your space either IIRC.

My point is that the basic default ways things work ARE the best. That doesn't mean you have to slavishly adhere to them every single minute. It just means you should keep the variations to a minimum. So for instance the phasing creature can be grabbed and held because well you "can't phase through flesh" (if you need fluff for it at all). It just an exercise that the DM should be performing in his head as he runs the game, asking what will be interesting, logical, surprising, and fun.

It isn't always the most fun for things to work like X just because X is RAW every single time. Players actually LIKE to be presented with quirky challenges sometimes. You guys all act like someone spit on your mother if you're character doesn't get to do his thing EVERY SINGLE round of every combat. Knock it off! It is MORE FUN if once in a while you run into "oops! Oh Crom, now what do I do!" here and there. Call it arbitrary all you want, but when done well it is quite good for the game, just like it is often quite good for the game to give away the treasure you WANT to give away and not fill out checkboxs on Joe's wishlist all the time, etc. Half the wonder and fun of the game is stuff that you don't expect and weren't ready for.
 

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