D&D 4E 4e and reality

[Hussar]

Ok, let's take it from the other side for a second P1NBACK.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the character begins climbing from the point in time when he declares that he is climbing. The die roll determines how far, but, he's climbing before he rolls.

What happens if he fails? At what point does he fail? Because it certainly does matter. If he fails after the first ten feet, he falls and takes damage and he is prone. Note, he doesn't take damage or fall prone if he falls less than ten feet.

So, I narrate that I'm climbing up the wall. On a successful check, I climb 15 feet. If I fail by 5 or more, I fall. Since I'm climbing before the dice are rolled, at what point do I fall?

Lost Soul's example of running speaks to this pretty heavily. There's a conflation of the English word "run" and the D&D game term, "Run". They are not the same thing. If my speed is 5 and I move 5 or less squares, I can narrate that however I please, and it will not invoke any mechanics. I can narrate that I move cautiously, I rush, hurry, tap dance or, indeed, run and nothing changes.

If, OTOH, I engage the D&D mechanic of "Run" then I move up to 2 more squares than my speed, grant combat advantage and take some serious penaties to attack.

They are not the same thing. And trying to invoke game mechanics because of a narrative element is not what the mechanics are for. Why would anyone narrate that he's running forward if he's going to take penalties? Instead, the player narrates that he "rushes forward".

Now, is he running or not?

 

[CovertOps]

Walking across the room is not mechanically determined. Therefore you can do it any time you like.

Not so minor nitpick. This is not true. Walking across a room IS mechanically determined because the character has a speed value (you can only move so many squares / time period) and can be affected by things like difficult terrain. Now perhaps there is no difficult terrain and time is a non-factor in which case you can SKIP the mechanical part as in your arm grabbing example, but it is still there.

 

[P1NBACK]

I meant to respond to this, but then thought it would be better for the conversation as a whole if put here. I'd hate to be accused of misquoting you.

Oh, it's not a conversation. It's a literal example of fiction intertwined with mechanics at its best.

 

[P1NBACK]

Ok, let's take it from the other side for a second P1NBACK.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the character begins climbing from the point in time when he declares that he is climbing. The die roll determines how far, but, he's climbing before he rolls.

He begins climbing. Yes.

What happens if he fails?

We can find out once we engage the mechanics that resolve this fictional action (climbing up the wall). First, let's determine what happens on a success.

Let's take a look:

We use Athletics, obviously, and check the "Climb" subsection.

The first sentence is:

The check is usually part of a move action...

Sweet. So, we have declared that we are moving, so that makes sense. We're moving up the wall.

Now, as DM, I'd make sure the character had a move action left. No move action, then you don't have time left in this turn to move (and I say, "Sorry, you can't start climbing this turn...". However, if you have a move action, you can go ahead and proceed.

DC: See the table. If you use a climber’s kit, you get a +2 bonus to your Athletics check. If you can brace yourself between two surfaces, you get a +5 bonus to your check.

Great. I set a DC based on the wall and then we calculate the PC's skill in Athletics for climbing, finding out whether he is bracing himself or using a climber's kit or if there are any situational modifiers, etc...

Success: You climb at one-half your speed.

Sweet. If you succeed with your roll vs. the DC, then you climb up to half your speed.

At what point does he fail? Because it certainly does matter. If he fails after the first ten feet, he falls and takes damage and he is prone. Note, he doesn't take damage or fall prone if he falls less than ten feet.

It's pretty clear in the rules what happens. Let's say we established the character could actually climb, we set the DC and rolled and the roll came up failure.

Fail by 4 or Less: If you were already climbing, you don’t fall. If you were trying to start climbing, you fail to do so.

Right there. In the rules. If you were trying to start climbing, you fail to do so. Bam! We had fiction: "I try to start climbing up the wall..."

And, then mechanics: "If you were trying to start climbing, and fail by 4 or less, you fail to start climbing!"

Fictionally, we come back and say, oh, I don't know, the character couldn't find the right handholds to begin, or he slipped on his first try, or he was having problems getting his gear in place, etc...

We have to know whether the character was trying to climb in the first place to use this mechanic!

So, I narrate that I'm climbing up the wall. On a successful check, I climb 15 feet. If I fail by 5 or more, I fall. Since I'm climbing before the dice are rolled, at what point do I fall?

If you are trying to start climbing, you DON'T fall. You simply, "fail to start climbing."

Lost Soul's example of running speaks to this pretty heavily. There's a conflation of the English word "run" and the D&D game term, "Run". They are not the same thing. If my speed is 5 and I move 5 or less squares, I can narrate that however I please, and it will not invoke any mechanics. I can narrate that I move cautiously, I rush, hurry, tap dance or, indeed, run and nothing changes.

Hmmm... I agree for the most part. But, the narration and intentions of the player fictionally inform us of the mechanics we need to use to resolve the action.

If a player says, "I run up to the orc..." that is certainly fictional. However, we need to know what the player intends to do exactly. Do you want to just run, letting your guard down, and cover more ground in a shorter amount of time (run action)? Do you want to run and hit the orc (charge action)? Do you want to run and not do anything else using a longer amount of time (double move)?

So, the intentions of the player matters in how we resolve the fictional "run".

If, OTOH, I engage the D&D mechanic of "Run" then I move up to 2 more squares than my speed, grant combat advantage and take some serious penaties to attack.

They are not the same thing. And trying to invoke game mechanics because of a narrative element is not what the mechanics are for. Why would anyone narrate that he's running forward if he's going to take penalties? Instead, the player narrates that he "rushes forward".

Now, is he running or not?

It depends on the player's intentions.

"I run forward and swipe at the orc..." Invoke Charge mechanic. Resolve.

"I run forward quickly dropping my guard so I can get to him in time in order to perform first aid!" Invoke Run movement. Resolve.

"I run over to that waterfall, but focus all my energy on moving so I don't have to worry about getting close to the orcs..." Invoke double-move. Resolve.

In all cases, there's a fictional "run" and each mechanic can be used to resolve that run depending on the circumstances at the table and what the player's intentions are.

If you say, "I rush forward..." I am certainly going to ask, as DM, "Great. Are you going to Charge, Run or Double Move?" And, if you say, "None of the above." Then I say, "Well, what do you mean by 'rush forward' then so we can resolve what you want?" Because, we might need to invoke page 42 of the DMG to resolve that.

Make sense?

 

[Hussar]

If you are trying to start climbing, you DON'T fall. You simply, "fail to start climbing."

So, we're back to retconning narrative. After all, I did start climbing according to you. When I declared that I was going to start climbing, then that's what I did. Narrative first after all.

But, then the dice say that I didn't start climbing at all.

So, I live in this sort of quantum state of climbing and not climbing at the same time with the narrative being retconned once the die is rolled.

Or, I can go with mechanics first and say that I haven't actually done anything - other than something purely mental like decide what I want to do - and once the dice are rolled, then I narrate what happens.

If you say, "I rush forward..." I am certainly going to ask, as DM, "Great. Are you going to Charge, Run or Double Move?" And, if you say, "None of the above." Then I say, "Well, what do you mean by 'rush forward' then so we can resolve what you want?" Because, we might need to invoke page 42 of the DMG to resolve that.

Why? "I run forward and Tide of Iron him." fits none of your results yet is perfectly allowable by the rules. I moved my speed and then used a standard.

Since all of those things are entirely in the hands of the player (barring extra information that the player is unaware of - like a pit trap or what not), the player can narrate that however he sees fit.

And, no actual other mechanics - like the Run mechanic - are engaged, despite the fact that I stated in plain English that I was running. Conflating plain English with game effects leads to all sorts of weirdness.

 

[P1NBACK]

So, we're back to retconning narrative. After all, I did start climbing according to you. When I declared that I was going to start climbing, then that's what I did. Narrative first after all.

But, then the dice say that I didn't start climbing at all.

Nah. You still spent your move action right? You DID something. You just failed to "climb". Mechanically, and fictionally, you did something. You spent a move action to try and climb the wall. The dice determine how effective you were.

Like I said:

Fictionally, we come back and say, oh, I don't know, the character couldn't find the right handholds to begin, or he slipped on his first try, or he was having problems getting his gear in place, etc...

So, I live in this sort of quantum state of climbing and not climbing at the same time with the narrative being retconned once the die is rolled.

There's no retconning. We say, "He tried to climb the wall and slipped. Jim, what do you do?"

Or, I can go with mechanics first and say that I haven't actually done anything - other than something purely mental like decide what I want to do - and once the dice are rolled, then I narrate what happens.

Except, if that's the case and you haven't actually done anything, then do you spend a move action if the roll fails? No. You wouldn't. "I climb the wall" - "Well, hold on! Mechanics first!" - "Ok, my Athletics check... ! A 1" - "Um, well that means you can't start climbing..." - "Great. So I keep my move action right?"

Nah. That's not how it works. That spending of the move action - remember, as part of a move action - means that you are doing something.

Why? "I run forward and Tide of Iron him." fits none of your results yet is perfectly allowable by the rules. I moved my speed and then used a standard.

Then, you're not really running are you?

If I say, "I grab him!" And, I'm like, "Cool! Roll a grab attack!" And, you're like, "No no! I want to PUSH him!" That doesn't make any sense. I say, "Well, then you're not grabbing him are you? Roll to Bull Rush."

Since all of those things are entirely in the hands of the player (barring extra information that the player is unaware of - like a pit trap or what not), the player can narrate that however he sees fit.

No. Not at all. You narrate what you want to accomplish. If you want to push him, don't narrate: "I want to run up and give him a kiss!"

Uh. No.

And, no actual other mechanics - like the Run mechanic - are engaged, despite the fact that I stated in plain English that I was running. Conflating plain English with game effects leads to all sorts of weirdness.

Not at all. Plain English is how we roleplay (assuming we're speaking in English). That's how I convey what I'm trying to accomplish. Then, and only then, can we use the mechanics to resolve that fiction (if we need mechanics to resolve it... we may not).

Now. I do agree that if I say, "I run up to the orc..." there are several mechanics I can use to represent that. Yes! Absolutely true. But, if I say, "I run up the orc!" And then try to use the "crawl" mechanic... Um, no. That doesn't work. If you want to use that mechanic, you need to narrate yourself crawling.

 

[Hussar]

Nah. That's not how it works. That spending of the move action - remember, as part of a move action - means that you are doing something.

And this is where we disagree.

Why? A "game action" is a purely fictional construct. It has no real meaning outside of the game. Moving X distance is limited by the mechanics, but, is not determined by the mechanics, thus it can be narrated however the player sees fit.

But, if I "try to climb", what have I actually done before the dice are rolled? Presumably I'm next to a surface that needs to be climbed, but, beyond that, I have done nothing. If I fail the roll, then I scrabble ineffectively at the wall. If I succeed, I move a distance up the wall.

But, until I roll the dice, at no point, was I ACTUALLY climbing the wall. I stated an intention, sure - I want to climb the wall. The dice determine what actually happens when I act upon that intention. My narration has no effect upon that and, before the dice are rolled, the only narration I can make that won't be retconned by the dice is a declaration of intent.

Sure, I can narrate what I want to accomplish until the cows come home. But, at the end of the day, that narration has no effect on what happens in the game, other than to engage mechanics which actually DO determine what happens in the game.

I can narrate that I take a massive, out of the ballpark swing at the head of the bad guy. Hit. And do minimum damage. Now we have a disonance between the narration and what actually happened. After all, I hit. I succeeded in my intent. Yet it has minimal effect. So, my narration doesn't actually fit with what happened in the game.

Yes, we play in English. But, game terms are NOT English. They have specific definitions that only apply within the context of the game. Run has a real English meaning and Run has a D&D 4e meaning. Those two meanings are only tangentially related (after all, both do mean to move faster than normal walking speed) and trying to apply one to the other only causes all sorts of problems.

 

[P1NBACK]

Exactly. Agree to disagree.

Thanks for your thoughts.