D&D 4E 4e and reality

[Majoru Oakheart]

By your rules, he can't start grabbing my arm until he rolls dice, but why would he need to roll dice unless I'm stopping him (or attempting to stop him)??? Doesn't make any sense unless you roll dice for every. single. action. in the game.

There are always things preventing you from taking every action. Slippery floors prevent you from walking, invisible walls prevent you from grabbing, spells can lock you in place. Which is why in all the games I've played in, the player isn't allowed to narrate anything. They are allowed to say what they want to do and the DM tells them if they are able to do it, what rolls they need to do, and what the final result is.

And this is my point. What actions are determined by the mechanics? None unless someone disagrees with the outcome. If I say, "I kill the kobold" and everyone else at the table says, "Yup. You do." Then there's no action there that needs to be determined by any mechanics. You just do it.

But there ARE mechanics that apply every time you try to kill someone. That's the rules, at least in 4e D&D. You need to decide what power you're using to kill the kobold and you need an attack roll and a damage roll.

It isn't up to anyone at the table to decide you kill the kobold except the DM who might decide to waive the rules in this particular case.

"I run up to the orc"
Fiction

Or Mechanics. After all, how far you can move is determined by the speed of your character, whether you can move at all is determined by what status effects you have on you and whether you have a move action free to run up to the Orc.

You also need to determine mechanically whether you meant you are using the Run action or just moving your speed, since each one has consequences mechanically.

Really, "I run up to the orc" is a flowery way of saying "I use the run action to move my speed+2 in this direction". It isn't fictional at all.

At least any more than "I run to Boardwalk!" is a fiction when you roll a 5 on the dice in Monopoly and land on Boardwalk.

"Well, there's a pit trap..."
Fiction

Also mechanics. The trap is a level 5 pit trap that provides a certain amount of XP. It has a stat block, which determines when it triggers and what effects it has when it triggers. It was put there because the DM thought it would be an appropriate challenge for your characters, would be interesting to encounter, and was within his/her XP budget.

It is triggering because you entered one if its spaces.

"Ok, as I get close to the pit trap I leap over it..."
Fiction

Also mechanics. Leaping over the pit is an action defined in the rules. It is given to you as an option because the rules say so. "I leap over the pit" is short form for "I use Athletics to attempt to get to the other side of the pit".

It is no more fictional than "I buy Boardwalk!" is in Monopoly.

"As you leap over the pit trap you make it just to the other side, but you can tell instantly, you're too short. You land hitting hard against the other side, but try as you might to grasp onto something you fall into the pit. Falling, you see spikes at the bottom... they look coated in some kind of sticky substance."
Fiction

This part IS fiction. It's simply a fictional description of what happens when you fail a jump check. So, the fiction was determined by the mechanics anyways. It could be replaced with "You failed your jump check, you fall into the pit" without any practical difference other than the feelings or tension it invokes in the players at the table.

"As you hit the bottom of the pit, a spike also punctures your left arm and you feel the sticky substance seeping into the wound."
Fiction

Yep, fiction. It's just a flowery description of "You take 10 damage and 5 ongoing poison". In other words, it has no practical effect on the game other than the feeling it invokes.

It's pretty simple to see here. The mechanics resolve the fiction.

I don't see that at all. The fiction in this case is simply describing the mechanics. You aren't going to describe the punctures on the arm and the sticky substance in the wound if the trap misses or if it didn't do poison damage as part of its stat block.

It's because of the mechanics(its bonus to hit, its damage line, the result of the dice) that the fiction happens.

I can't believe I'm having to explain this. How can you possible know what to roll if you don't know what the fiction is?

The truth is, I don't see the difference between the "fiction" and the mechanics. Mechanics are game ways of describing fiction and vice versa.

"I jump over the pit" and "I roll a 24 on my Athletics check to get over the pit" are two ways of saying the exact same thing. In both cases, the actions your character is taking is the same as is the result. They are both fiction and they are both mechanics.

No. It's not mechanical. Me slamming my shield isn't mechanical. It's fictional. It just so happens I have a "power" that allows me to resolve that.

But, what if I didn't? Can I not do that action fictionally? Of course not!

There are a number of things you can't do fictionally. If someone at my table says "I teleport to the other side of the Orc" and they don't have a power that lets them teleport, then they can't. The same thing applies to attempting to fly, trip, disarm, charm, become invisible, and any number of other actions.

Simply saying something in fiction doesn't make it true. You need an equivalent game mechanic that goes with it.

This is why the description (fiction) is so important. I slam my shield into the orc and try to push him back.

Well, do you have a power?

No.

Ok. Lemme pull up page 42!

Page 42 may or may not apply in this circumstance. Page 42 gets abused by many DMs. It's a handy reference for attacks that don't come from your powers and how many damage they should do. However, in order to use Page 42, you need to be trained in acrobatics and it must actually be an acrobatic stunt of some sort.

In my games if someone said "I slam my shield into the orc and attempt to push them back", I'd ask what power they are using to do that. If they didn't have one, I'd say "That sounds like a bull rush to me, make a roll for that".

No it doesn't. "I swing my sword at him..."

I'm not rolling dice to see if I swing my sword. I'm rolling dice to see how effective I swing my sword.

Here, I agree with you, at least mostly. I think the swinging of the sword and the mechanics that go with it are linked. You aren't swinging your sword unless you are telling me which game mechanics you are using to swing your sword and you aren't hitting with your sword until you roll a dice to determine that.

Considering "I swing my sword" could just as easily be the description of a 30th level daily as it is a basic attack. It could be a free action all the way to a standard action. Whether you are allowed to even begin the swing is determined by what type of action it takes, what type of actions you have left, whether there are status effects on you, and sometimes whether you have already used the power that lets you swing your sword.

Over whether I swing my sword? Of course I do.

See above. It isn't always your choice. The swinging your sword action is almost always available because you have an at-will basic attack. However, replace swinging your sword with "I assume Primal Guardian form" or "I teleport" or any number of other actions and whether you can even attempt them may not be your choice. The DM or game mechanics may decide for you.

"I want to run up to the orc and thrash at him with my axe hoping to scare him away from Jim the Wizard!"

Tell, me. How do you adjudicate that?

I ask what power he is using to thrash at the orc. If it's a basic attack, I ask him to roll a basic attack against the orc. I decide on the orc's next action if I consider the PC scary enough to get away from Jim the Wizard.

I can't do anything except what's mechanically present? That's not roleplaying. That's a board game. And, that's my point. Putting "fluff" or "flavor" on it, as you put it, does not make it a roleplaying game.

No matter what, there is a huge list of things you can't do. Way more than the list of things you CAN do. You can say "I convince the most powerful dragon on the planet to attack that city for us" but if you aren't in front of the dragon, you don't know where the dragon is, and the DM has decided that it's a DC 40 Diplomacy check to convince him(and you only have +1) then you can't do it. It's simply not an option.

Often wandering off on your own and refusing to work with the rest of the party is not an option, because you stop playing the game. Killing off your fellow PCs(in many games) is not an option. Sometimes it's not an option to deny an adventure hook because your DM has nothing else planned and saying no means not playing that day.

Having your actions limited does not stop a game from being a roleplaying game. A roleplaying game is a game in which you play a role and attempt to make decisions as if you were actually the role you are portraying. But it's also a game, so sometimes your actions need to be limited to make the game more fun for everyone.

And saying "That's not a roleplaying game, that's a board game!" is rather insulting. I've never heard anyone use that phrase without meaning "You've managed to dumb the game down to a lesser level". I don't consider it to be any lesser. Just different.

 

[LostSoul]

Or Mechanics. After all, how far you can move is determined by the speed of your character, whether you can move at all is determined by what status effects you have on you and whether you have a move action free to run up to the Orc.

Check it:
"I run up to the orc. My speed is 5 so I can do it with a regular move action." (moves mini 5 squares)
"Since you're running, when you step onto the pit trap it has Combat Advantage against you!"

"I creep forward to the orc, shield held up in a defensive posture. My speed is 5 so I can do it with a regular move action." (moves mini 5 squares)
"Since you're moving cautiously, when you step on the pit trap you're in a better position to jump back. I'll give you a +2 bonus to your Reflex defence against its attack."

Yep, fiction. It's just a flowery description of "You take 10 damage and 5 ongoing poison". In other words, it has no practical effect on the game other than the feeling it invokes.

Check it:
"As you hit the bottom of the pit, a spike also punctures your left arm and you feel the sticky substance seeping into the wound."
"I climb out of the pit and take up a defensive posture against the two orcs."
"The first orc sees your wound and slams his axe into your shield, trying to knock it to the side, opening you up for his friend's attack. Since your left arm is wounded and poisoned I'll give him a +2 bonus to his Aid Another check."

 

[P1NBACK]

Perhaps a better way to define an RPG is that you can try anything within reason. In Monopoly you can only roll the dice and do what the rules tell you can do.

Exactly. Those things you can "try" they are imagined events (i.e. fiction) that can have a direct impact on the game. In your words, you can "try anything" (although 'anything' in this case is our shared setting/color/etc... so that the 'anything' at your table might change depending on the game and the players or both).

In Monopoly, I can't, for example, decide to go rob the bank right? Even though I can "imagine it" and describe my character doing it, it doesn't have any bearing on what the actual game allows for.

An RPG, will allow this. In 4E, I can (and should) do whatever I can imagine and describe (of course, within our group's agreed upon limits - which vary as much as there are groups - which is why LostSoul makes the point that the people you play with are almost as important as the game you are playing - this is fine - it's part of RPGs).

Let me revise my previous flow charts:
4e:
Player -> [what can I do that will most help the party? -- FICTION] "I use Tide of Iron on the Orc" -> Dice -> Result

Player -> [what can I do that will most help the party? -- FICTION] "I want to push the Orc back so I bull rush him" -> Dice -> Result

These are pretty much the same thing. So long as you are making the clear distinction that (like a previous poster said) you're using the words "Tide of Iron" as a fictional maneuver. If you say, "I use my Tide of Iron power...", that's a mechanical statement (this is why I prefer a description of what the power does - as I mentioned pages ago, I haven't memorized the names for every power, so if you say, "I use Thromgard's Ever-Punishing Brutalization" - it means nothing to most of us at the table fictionally. Describe what that means... It can be simple - and we can even acknowledge that Thromgard's Ever-Punishing Brutalization means that from now on - as a fictional maneuver akin to "flying kick" or whatever. Sure. I can buy that.)

Player -> [what can I do that will most help the party? -- FICTION] "I swing from the chandelier and smash feet first into the Orc to knock him over (prone)". -> Dice -> Result

Exactly. Sounds awesome.

The point I've been trying to make is that in 4e there is no difference between using a power (pre-written fiction) or invoking page 42.

The power itself is not pre-written fiction though. It alludes to pre-written fiction and gives an example (that's why they have the "flavor text" in the bottom). If you took away all the "names" of powers and used the flavor text instead (modifying it to the situation) you'd be made of win. But a power, in and of itself, is mechanical resolution for a potential fictional move. Like you said, pre-fabbed.

You always have the choice to make EITHER action. This CHOICE is not allowed in Monopoly. You can compare the use of powers in 4e and say "You're just going into board game mode", but the fact of the matter is saying it doesn't make it true. You ALWAYS have the option to do something else (invoke page 42) EVEN IF YOU DON'T USE IT.

Oh yeah! I agree! That choice is what makes it an RPG. But, we still need the fiction there to have that choice. That's what I mean.

Claiming that because you don't ever invoke page 42 that therefore you're now playing a board game is at best wrong and at worst offensive. The "fiction" that keeps getting lauded so highly here is nothing more than the "player deciding what his character will do" with little to no restrictions which leads back to exactly what Neon said.

That's not what I'm claiming though. I'm claiming that if there is no clouds, no fiction generated at the table, you're not roleplaying. If the only thing there is mechanical artifacts (dice, minis, map), you're playing a boardgame. If you're generating fiction, and allowing that fiction to impact the game directly (as we discussed above) you are roleplaying.

I classify 4E D&D as a roleplaying game. I never said it wasn't. I said it could be played as a board game in combat if you allow it to be that. That is, if you ignore page 42 and the fiction making an impact on the rules (this is my argument for not allowing a human sized man to grab a gargantuan swarm of orcs... or alternatively, allowing a swarm of rats to be pushed with forced movement - both depending on the fiction), you are headed toward that "boardgame mode" I'm talking about.

Does that make sense?

p.s. You never PM'd me about my best example of fiction interweaving with the rules... If you're interested, PM me.

 

[P1NBACK]

I like to play like this: you describe what action your character takes, and then we figure out how to resolve it; we don't pick from a list of options, resolve that choice, and then figure out what that means.

Exactly. Using 4E as a toolbox of mechanics for resolving fiction is how I feel like the designers intended it to be played.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Check it:
"I run up to the orc. My speed is 5 so I can do it with a regular move action."

It's possible to do stuff like this, though I don't like it. Both players took the exact same action but one got good results and one got bad results. I really hate doing this to players. I really hate when DMs do it to me when I'm a player. It ends up becoming a game of "Can I find the right description that will give me bonuses".

I don't mind handing out good bonuses for good ideas, but when nearly any description can give you modifiers it becomes extremely frustrating. Use the wrong words and you might end up dead. Especially when the ruleset the game is using is fairly balanced. It inserts a point of imbalance into the game that's fairly random.

Check it:
"As you hit the bottom of the pit, a spike also punctures your left arm and you feel the sticky substance seeping into the wound."
"I climb out of the pit and take up a defensive posture against the two orcs."
"The first orc sees your wound and slams his axe into your shield, trying to knock it to the side, opening you up for his friend's attack. Since your left arm is wounded and poisoned I'll give him a +2 bonus to his Aid Another check."

Really, this is once again just applying extra mechanics that weren't part of the trap. If the trap was supposed to give out 10 damage, 5 ongoing poison and +2 to Aid Another checks made against you, it would have said that. And it might have been a level higher for having the extra effect. So it's really cheating the PCs out of extra XP.

And yes, I realize that in this case, the +2 to Air Another checks is fairly small and certainly wouldn't warrant a level increase on the trap.

Still, it's giving people a disadvantage that they didn't do anything to deserve simply because they described the spikes as hitting their left arm instead of their leg or their foot.

 

[CovertOps]

p.s. You never PM'd me about my best example of fiction interweaving with the rules... If you're interested, PM me.

I meant to respond to this, but then thought it would be better for the conversation as a whole if put here. I'd hate to be accused of misquoting you.

 

[CovertOps]

These are pretty much the same thing. So long as you are making the clear distinction that (like a previous poster said) you're using the words "Tide of Iron" as a fictional maneuver. If you say, "I use my Tide of Iron power...", that's a mechanical statement (this is why I prefer a description of what the power does - as I mentioned pages ago, I haven't memorized the names for every power, so if you say, "I use Thromgard's Ever-Punishing Brutalization" - it means nothing to most of us at the table fictionally. Describe what that means... It can be simple - and we can even acknowledge that Thromgard's Ever-Punishing Brutalization means that from now on - as a fictional maneuver akin to "flying kick" or whatever. Sure. I can buy that.)

The "previous poster" you are talking about is me. I have also stipulated that (for my players) I like hearing the name of the power they are using before they start rolling dice to prevent any shenanigans (Player - "Ok...I rolled a natural 20...I was using my daily power X" vs. "I Tide of Iron the Orc" - Player - I got a 20, sweet!). If any question comes up during the resolution of said players attack we know exactly what to look at because the power was named.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree with that. That's why I don't like to look at the list of powers (including ones such as Bull Rush) as a list of permissible actions. I like to play like this: you describe what action your character takes, and then we figure out how to resolve it; we don't pick from a list of options, resolve that choice, and then figure out what that means.

And this is literally EXACTLY why insisting that something like being able to grab a swarm when no rationale can be devised by which this could come to pass merely because the rules say you can doesn't work. The RULES are simply that, rules, they inform the fiction. If they don't then it isn't an RPG, it's Monopoly. I mean the swarm grabbing case is obviously a bit of an extreme, but the point is there is no list of things that the PCs can exclusively do and THERE IS NO LIST OF IMPERMITTED RESULTS either.

It is quite possible that a game of 4e will go on all night without anything actually happening that isn't covered exactly and entirely by some existing mechanics of course. That doesn't necessarily mean anyone is in "board game mode" either. It just means the rules are exceptionally comprehensive and often cover most everything pretty well.

 

[Hussar]

TLDR.

You've pretty much misread everything I've said, so, I'll take one last stab at this and call it quits.

By your rules, he can't start grabbing my arm until he rolls dice, but why would he need to roll dice unless I'm stopping him (or attempting to stop him)??? Doesn't make any sense unless you roll dice for every. single. action. in the game.

Nope. And that's where you've misread me. Grabbing your arm IS mechanically determined. That you choose not to stop him means that you have forgone (declared that you fail) the mechanical determination, but, that doesn't mean it's not there. Grabbing someone is something that is covered by the mechanics.

So, yes, technically, he should roll a to-hit to grab your arm. He could roll a "1" and automatically fail. But, most of the time, we simply ignore that and get on with the game.

I can't do anything except what's mechanically present? That's not roleplaying. That's a board game. And, that's my point. Putting "fluff" or "flavor" on it, as you put it, does not make it a roleplaying game.

That's not what I said.

What I said is that you cannot do anything that is MECHANICALLY DETERMINED without using the mechanics first. You can choose to ignore the mechanics, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean the mechanics aren't there.

Walking across the room is not mechanically determined. Therefore you can do it any time you like.

Attacking someone IS mechanically determined. You cannot narrate your attack until after it is resolved. Well, that's not quite true. You can narrate first, but, that narration has no effect whatsoever upon the resolution of that action in D&D. There are games that do allow for it, but, D&D has never been one of them.

As I said, you can claim to run behind the monster and stab him in the back until you're blue in the face, but, unless there's an ally across from you, you get no bonuses.

You can claim that you climb the wall all you like, but, until you roll, nothing happens in the game world. You DO NOT MOVE UP THE WALL until you roll the dice. Your vertical movement is exactly zero until those dice hit the table. You can narrate anything you like and it is meaningless until after you roll.

And that's true for most RPG's. While some RPG's do try to get you to narrate first, many do not. Heck, many RPG's randomly determine the fiction - GURPS combat tells you where you hit the bad guy randomly. I believe Role Master does the same. You can't even claim to be aiming somewhere (although I do believe there are rules for called shots) normally.

Let me repeat myself here. Anything that is NOT determined by the mechanics of the game can be narrated in any fashion the player wishes. Any action which requires mechanical resolution, cannot be. Any mechanically determined action must be resolved before you narrate.

If you do it beforehand, you will be forced to retcon the narration more often than not and it leads to the mechanics being disassociated from the narration. If you narrate AFTER an element is resolved, then there is never any disassociation.

 

[luide]

TLDR.

And that's true for most RPG's. While some RPG's do try to get you to narrate first, many do not. Heck, many RPG's randomly determine the fiction - GURPS combat tells you where you hit the bad guy randomly. I believe Role Master does the same. You can't even claim to be aiming somewhere (although I do believe there are rules for called shots) normally.

I know this is bit of derailing the thread, but I have to correct this misconception:
In GURPS, hit location is determined randomly ONLY if you declare not to be aiming somewhere. You can aim for body without no penalties for example. And the system is quite complex. For example some of the hit locations are only hittable with piercing/impaling, others have different hit modifiers depending on are you attacking from front or behind.

As far as Rolemaster goes, attacks do damage and if they succeed well enough, criticals of varying severity which are checked from critical hit tables that specify exactly where you hit and what happened. And there is critical table FOR everything...