TSR Why would anyone want to play 1e?

Why would we really care anyway? If I didn't enjoy Gary's style of play I sure wouldn't care that he enjoyed it. I also think we can know "playstyle" without being aware of the rules mechanics.
I think there's a bit of a tension here - while certainly one aspect of the OSR project was to look at old rules, in general the approach to this I recall and still think is great is to play with the rule and try to consider how it works, why it's there, and what fun it offers.

So with this you get things like Philotomy's musings (go read it if you haven't).

The tension is that this sort of exploration and experimentation with what I think Grognardia called the "D&D is always right" principle, can easily get simplified down to becoming "how did Gygax play" (etc) and the interpretation then becomes an argument about historical lineage and validity with the goal of play being nostalgic recreation. Instead I find it best to consider these things as new or at least reinterpretations, acknowledging that they are an "OSR" (or post OSR) invention and saying why one likes the result. In a way this is the same issue as "OSR maxims" which are more harmful then not these days because the original understanding as a nuanced and tentative consensus among an active community have been lost.
 

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I think there's a bit of a tension here - while certainly one aspect of the OSR project was to look at old rules, in general the approach to this I recall and still think is great is to play with the rule and try to consider how it works, why it's there, and what fun it offers.

So with this you get things like Philotomy's musings (go read it if you haven't).

The tension is that this sort of exploration and experimentation with what I think Grognardia called the "D&D is always right" principle, can easily get simplified down to becoming "how did Gygax play" (etc) and the interpretation then becomes an argument about historical lineage and validity with the goal of play being nostalgic recreation. Instead I find it best to consider these things as new or at least reinterpretations, acknowledging that they are an "OSR" (or post OSR) invention and saying why one likes the result. In a way this is the same issue as "OSR maxims" which are more harmful then not these days because the original understanding as a nuanced and tentative consensus among an active community have been lost.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. Honestly.

I guess in that sense I'm not truly OSR though I played during the early days. The playstyle and feel was always more important than the mechanics. I did like that 1e had no dissociative mechanics that I could discern but that is about the limit of my concern over mechanics being faithful. I thought 3e was a big improvement but over time it became exhaustingly complete.
 

I guess in that sense I'm not truly OSR though I played during the early days. The playstyle and feel was always more important than the mechanics. I did like that 1e had no dissociative mechanics that I could discern but that is about the limit of my concern over mechanics being faithful. I thought 3e was a big improvement but over time it became exhaustingly complete.
I think it's been really useful and sanity making for me to draw lines between "OSR", "Post-OSR", and "Old School". The borders are fuzzy but it's useful because the OSR particularly has a reasonably solid play style, while Classic/Old School varied a lot from 1974-1988 (or whenever one marks it off) across tables and through time.

It also helps push back against the idea that the OSR has fully explained older play, or other gatekeeping stuff.
 
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I find

I think it's been really useful and sanity making for me to draw lines between "OSR", "Post-OSR", and "Old School". The borders are fuzzy but it's useful because the OSR particularly has a reasonably solid play style, while Classic/Old School varied a lot from 1974-1988 (or whenever one marks it off) across tables and through time.

It also helps push back against the idea that the OSR has fully explained older play, or other gatekeeping stuff.
It would be helpful to me if you defined all those things you mentioned.
 

It would be helpful to me if you defined all those things you mentioned.
Sure I'll give a go:

"Old School" - RPGs from 1974 - 1989 (maybe), though the actual old school play has little consistency across the era, and various regional scenes - there's a huge variety of games in this era doing a lot of different things.
"Classic" - Here a way of describing a possible early play style (and I don't know how authentically it is a 1970's one vs. just being early OSR) for D&D/fantasy adventures - somewhat like OSR, but more focused on system and mastery of the implied setting - a touch wargamey and/or competitive at times - likely something coming of people's impression AD&D's tournament scene.
"The OSR" - A scene/movement in RPGs from 2006 - 2020 or so that started in response to D&D 3.5E/4E and sought in various ways reject the "trad" style of 90's games, and the more tactical combat focused style of post 3.5E D&D especially. In this it often looked towards older rulesets, though obviously as reflected through another 20 years of RPG design.
"Post OSR" - Post 2021ish (I use the death of G+ as the date but that's just convenient) The "child scenes" of the OSR. The OSR scene split it several grouping and communities including such groups as the "NSR" but is both too big and too varied to have the sort of shared communications about playstyle that the OSR used to. Where we are now.

Happy to define anything else (at least as far as I see it) or try to break down any of those cursed OSR maxims.
 

"The OSR" - A scene/movement in RPGs from 2006 - 2020 or so that started in response to D&D 3.5E/4E and sought in various ways reject the "trad" style of 90's games, and the more tactical combat focused style of post 3.5E D&D especially. In this it often looked towards older rulesets, though obviously as reflected through another 20 years of RPG design.

One thing I find interesting about the Edition Wars and other philosophical disputes within the TTRPG scene is that two factions can dislike a third faction and its preferred games or gaming styles for reasons that are not only completely different, but are in fact diametrically opposed to each other. The most obvious example would be the way 4E is treated as unacceptable “not-my-D&D” by two completely different opposing camps:

(1) 3E folk who really liked the character builds and heavy rules crunch of the 3.X/PF1 family of games and consequently never stopped playing their perfect system, rejecting 4E (and sometimes PF2E) for being too much like Warcraft, Everquest, and MMORPGs or CRPGs generally

(2) OSR folk who rejected both 3E and 4E for their crunch and general power creep, preferring the simpler rules and deadly grit of early editions like OD&D, B/X, or AD&D (although both 1E RAW and 2E with kits each start to get pretty crunchy again, in their own separate ways...)

The 3E and OSR camps each rejected 4E while still not being able to play the same games at the same tables, because they rejected 4E for completely different reasons, arriving at the same destination by completely different routes from different initial assumptions. They can also agree to dislike 5E, but again for completely different reasons. The 3E players think 5E does not have enough character building options, while the OSR players think it has too many. Some OSR players will grudgingly give 5E some credit for taking a step in the right direction towards a lighter rules set, while 3E players would see that as a step in the wrong direction. Or to put it another way, the OSR developed as a reaction against all versions of “Coastal Wizards” D&D, starting with 3E, so 3E players and OSR players can happily bash WotC/Hasbro together for a while, until eventually the OSR people say something that makes the 3E people stop short and say “Hey, wait a minute...”
 

I also find it a bit strange when people complain about D&D 4E (and PF2E) being too focused on tactical tabletop features, including the use of miniatures and map grids, as if this were some newfangled intrusion upon the original spirit of the game. Because of course D&D began as a rules variant for EGG’s medieval tabletop wargame Chainmail. Here it is printed right on the front of the original white box:

“Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures”

While miniature figures, terrain, and maps were never required, the original game did assume familiarity with wargaming conventions and kept a lot of the old tactical mindset. Many groups already used “theater of the mind” even in the 70’s, and this became more and more common in the 80’s and 90’s as the wargame scene gradually faded and Warhammer emerged as the chief inheritor of the tabletop miniatures tradition. But there are still a fair number of options left for people who like the tactile (and tactical) feel of tabletop miniatures and maps, and now VTTs are making that play style viable in the remote digital world.
 

Basically, most groups pretty much play D&D "their" preferred way, and reject any change to the system that implies that "their" way is old & busted compared to the "new hotness" of whatever the current edition is.

During the AD&D years, the game was pretty much the Wild West of gaming. Groups picked and chose which rules to use and which to ignore, injecting their own variant rules to flavor, and focusing on whatever elements they preferred.

It's to the point that many debates I've been in have people insisting "this is how AD&D was played!" and when I produce actual copied sections from the rulebooks that contradict those statements, they get especially irate about it!

As an example, I've been in a lot of discussions about the AD&D Thief, with people insisting it's an awesome class that sneaks around invisibly and backstabs all the things into oblivion. Then I post the actual rules, and all the prohibitions limiting the "awesome" (heh) power of the Thief class, to demonstrate how what they're saying simply isn't possible by the rules as written, and the sparks really fly, because how dare I disparage their memories of the fun they had, damn what the rulebooks say!

It's to the point that it's sometimes hard to believe people like any edition, really- when what they really like is their version of it. It's like this discussion I had the other day with my friends, and one said something to the effect of this:

"3.5 is a great game! You just have to ignore these splatbooks, limit people to one prestige class, not allow Divine Metamagic, nerf all the spells, and give Fighters a bonus Feat at each level! And no Tome of Battle or Psionics cheese!"

They didn't phrase it like that, of course. It wasn't until I boiled down the essence of what they were saying, that the game was only great for them with about 10 pages of house rules (mostly revolving around re-balancing a good 20 spells) and deliberately ignoring a bunch of supplements. And they didn't even touch some of the bigger problems, like Druids, because they had no memory of anyone ever playing a Druid in their games and being good- while they were talking about how amazing their Monk was "because of all their special abilities, they didn't even need magic items"!

It's a combination of wearing blinders and rose colored glasses simultaneously.

Or another debate I had with someone about how they would scale back casters by making them work more like "martials" with classes having defined roles...and I blithely commented "oh, so like 4e then?" and I swear they were about to fly over the table at me, dual-wielding rulebooks to smite me for my temerity!

See I was active on the Wizard forums towards the tail end of 3.5, and a lot of complaints being made there, about balance between classes, getting rid of caster dominance, and switching to an encounter-based paradigm to combat 5 minute work days were constant. 4e solved all of those problems, but the reaction was immediately "no, not like that!"

Because what they really wanted was all those fixes without any other changes to the game they were playing at the moment! They didn't want to invalidate their game play, their favorite character builds, and definitely not their current collection of rulebooks!

It reminds me of the Legend of Zelda's fandom- where the fans want each game to be innovative, break new ground, and re-invigorate the franchise- while also being exactly like their favorite older game! I believe it's considered a classic now, but when Wind Waker came out, fans were freaking out- "Link looks like a little baby! I hate this art style! This game is stupid, Ocarina/Majora's was better, you should have made another game like that!"

(While older fans like me were quietly asking for another Link to the Past...lol).

It's become quite apparent that nobody plays the games as they are written, because they have their own preferences/conceits- and I'm not condemning that! I was recently asked to run a Pathfinder 1e game again, and I had to laugh at myself when the first thing I did was type up a four page document of rules modifications!

But it goes beyond just rules, there's also playstyle. I was involved in a debate over 5e's Dispel Evil and Good where a lot of DM's felt the spell "needs" an attack roll to dispel possession, because it makes it too easy to negate a dangerous situation/potential major plot point if players can just line up a "magic bullet" spell to solve any problem- when the D&D magic system has been pretty much like that forever. Or people who gripe about how magic ruins the exploration tier with spells like goodberry, create food and water, etc. etc.- almost all of which existed in 1e, but nobody was using them because if were stuck in the unenviable role of playing a divine caster, your entire spell list was probably various flavors of healing magic, lol.

You have DM's who refuse to let Insight detect if someone is lying to you, or scoff at social rolls, because it reduces "role play" to "roll play", and apparently would love for Charisma to go back to being merely a metric for how many hirelings you can tote around!

I've never played with any DM, btw, who actually uses NPC reaction rules as written- they know how their NPC's will react to the player's shenanigans, and don't need no random rolls to tell them how to run them, thank you very much! I think this is what got 3.5 Diplomancers so much hate, because you had these character concepts based around rules that nobody really wanted to use in the first place, lol.

Anyways, I'm rambling. People absolutely should play the game they want. I just wish that they just did that instead of griping about every other way to play (or worse insisting that somehow, their way is the only "correct" way to play!).
 

One thing I find interesting about the Edition Wars and other philosophical disputes within the TTRPG scene is that two factions can dislike a third faction and its preferred games or gaming styles for reasons that are not only completely different, but are in fact diametrically opposed to each other. The most obvious example would be the way 4E is treated as unacceptable “not-my-D&D” by two completely different opposing camps...

(2) OSR folk who rejected both 3E and 4E for their crunch and general power creep, preferring the simpler rules and deadly grit of early editions like OD&D, B/X, or AD&D (although both 1E RAW and 2E with kits each start to get pretty crunchy again, in their own separate ways...)
That would be me.

1e can fairly easily be de-crunched somewhat without destroying it.
The 3E and OSR camps each rejected 4E while still not being able to play the same games at the same tables, because they rejected 4E for completely different reasons, arriving at the same destination by completely different routes from different initial assumptions. They can also agree to dislike 5E, but again for completely different reasons. The 3E players think 5E does not have enough character building options, while the OSR players think it has too many. Some OSR players will grudgingly give 5E some credit for taking a step in the right direction towards a lighter rules set, while 3E players would see that as a step in the wrong direction. Or to put it another way, the OSR developed as a reaction against all versions of “Coastal Wizards” D&D, starting with 3E, so 3E players and OSR players can happily bash WotC/Hasbro together for a while, until eventually the OSR people say something that makes the 3E people stop short and say “Hey, wait a minute...”
I know I really don't like the whole "character build" side of the game that all three WotC editions promote.
 

I know I really don't like the whole "character build" side of the game that all three WotC editions promote.
It was a natural evolution of what was going on by late 2e. You had a wide variety of race options, classes, kits, alternate uses for proficiencies, a ton of NWP's, a massive library of spells, psionic wild talents, lots of crazy good weapons (not that anything was better than TWF, really, beyond ancient celtic spear throwing)- and that's not even getting into the Player's Option stuff.

I'm probably even forgetting something else you could do to tweak your character, if you owned all the books. 2e had started with this promise of "make the character you want to play", and while it initially did a terrible job of that, you eventually could play a three-armed half-tree Aasimar Ranger/Wizard with a page and a half of psionic wild talents, triple-wielding three longswords*, if the DM A) allowed it, and B) you got really lucky and didn't burn your brain out trying to get psionics, lol.

*You could use three katanas, but long swords were still the most prevalent weapon type.

And all of the above pales in comparison to what Mythos priests could do, as some TSR developers figured "nobody wants to play a Cleric, despite how strong they are, so eff it, let's go nuts".

Notably the writer of the Complete Priest's Handbook didn't think this way at all, but they were swiftly ignored by the time Legends & Lore came out.
 

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