TSR Why would anyone want to play 1e?

[Emerikol]

I think every edition has it's flaws and strengths. I played the first four editions.
1e: General Playstyle was a strength but mechanics were pretty much spaghetti.
2e: Lots of worlds and supplements but lots of garbage in the mix. Also rules were not spaghetti but maybe lasagna.
3e: Lots of options and build variability and rules that were systemic. Massive bloat especially third parties. Also started eliminating 1e playstyle elements. Bad things happening to PCs was considered "unfun".
4e: DM's life made better. Monster approach vastly better. Recharge. But..dissociative mechanics and a uniform class structure were bad for me.
5e: (Never played it so keep that in mind). Simplified from 3e. Advantage. But..messed with magic in major ways. Despised the entire healing and rest system. Messed with a lot of core tropes of D&D.

If forced, I'd probably houserule 3e by bringing back in the 1e playstyle and also bring back level drains and rust monsters. I'd strip out a lot of feats. Ban all third parties and any books beyond the core unless approved. I like bounded accuracy but 5e goes too far.

After 4e and the initial publication of 5e, I realized that WOTC was not trying to target me so I sought other games in the third party D&D clone world.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

It was a natural evolution of what was going on by late 2e. You had a wide variety of race options, classes, kits, alternate uses for proficiencies, a ton of NWP's, a massive library of spells, psionic wild talents, lots of crazy good weapons (not that anything was better than TWF, really, beyond ancient celtic spear throwing)- and that's not even getting into the Player's Option stuff.

So I would say that, to a very limited extent, character builds and character optimization has always been present in D&D since the beginning. Back in 0E, I can remember one person who read the supplement Gods, Demogods & Heroes and invariably had his characters worship Uller because it granted a 2" bonus to movement.

That said, I think that that the prevalence of random rolling for stats (usually in order) prevented the idea of "character builds" being, well, a thing. Also the fact that magic items were so important to your abilities, and they were pretty random. Between these two factors, character builds ... it was a different world. Other than creating higher-level characters for one-shots (for example), it never occurred to me to "build a character," because I always would discover the character through serendipity and discovery through play- first the rolls that would reveal what strengths and weaknesses that PC had (and help guide me to a class), and then the magic items would further move me in certain directions.

I'd argue that the first sea-change wasn't 2e (although I agree that by late 2e, it was definitely "a thing"). Instead, the major mental shift I saw occurred with the most accursed of books, the original hardcover Unearthed Arcana (1e, 1985). Why? Because I saw it happen. Well, until all the pages fell out after two months...

Ahem. Anyway, I'd argue that there were three major changes that happened, listed in order of importance:

1. Method V to create the PC. This was the infamous introduction of "Choose your class, roll up to 9d6, automatically get the minimum score" generation. In other words, AFAIK, this was the first official way in D&D to choose a class, then get your ability scores. Did Gygax restrict it to humans? OF COURSE HE DID! Did people read that, and ignore it? YEP.

2. Weapon Specialization. Before UA's weapon specialization, martial characters would often end up with using the best and coolest magical weapon they found. Yeah, there were a LOT OF SWORDS. But also some weird stuff, just because that's what you found. After specialization, characters would choose their weapon, and just ... you know, keep on looking for a magical version of that particular thing.

3. Demi-human expansion. There were more demi-humans, they were allowed into more classes, and they level limits (which weren't always ... observed) were raised. So suddenly "building" race + class became much more of a thing.


Obviously, this wasn't building in the same way that it was later on. But I'd argue that 1e UA was the genesis. IMO, YMMV.

 

[Sacrosanct]

So I would say that, to a very limited extent, character builds and character optimization has always been present in D&D since the beginning. Back in 0E, I can remember one person who read the supplement Gods, Demogods & Heroes and invariably had his characters worship Uller because it granted a 2" bonus to movement.

That said, I think that that the prevalence of random rolling for stats (usually in order) prevented the idea of "character builds" being, well, a thing. Also the fact that magic items were so important to your abilities, and they were pretty random. Between these two factors, character builds ... it was a different world. Other than creating higher-level characters for one-shots (for example), it never occurred to me to "build a character," because I always would discover the character through serendipity and discovery through play- first the rolls that would reveal what strengths and weaknesses that PC had (and help guide me to a class), and then the magic items would further move me in certain directions.

I'd argue that the first sea-change wasn't 2e (although I agree that by late 2e, it was definitely "a thing"). Instead, the major mental shift I saw occurred with the most accursed of books, the original hardcover Unearthed Arcana (1e, 1985). Why? Because I saw it happen. Well, until all the pages fell out after two months...

Ahem. Anyway, I'd argue that there were three major changes that happened, listed in order of importance:

1. Method V to create the PC. This was the infamous introduction of "Choose your class, roll up to 9d6, automatically get the minimum score" generation. In other words, AFAIK, this was the first official way in D&D to choose a class, then get your ability scores. Did Gygax restrict it to humans? OF COURSE HE DID! Did people read that, and ignore it? YEP.

2. Weapon Specialization. Before UA's weapon specialization, martial characters would often end up with using the best and coolest magical weapon they found. Yeah, there were a LOT OF SWORDS. But also some weird stuff, just because that's what you found. After specialization, characters would choose their weapon, and just ... you know, keep on looking for a magical version of that particular thing.

3. Demi-human expansion. There were more demi-humans, they were allowed into more classes, and they level limits (which weren't always ... observed) were raised. So suddenly "building" race + class became much more of a thing.


Obviously, this wasn't building in the same way that it was later on. But I'd argue that 1e UA was the genesis. IMO, YMMV.

And I'd say UA was just an evolution of what we were already seeing with Dragon Magazine. All of those NPC classes? Everyone just used them as PC classes. So even before UA, we saw stuff like the anti-paladin in 1980. Which makes sense, seeing as how UA was largely just a compilation of DRAGON stuff

 

[Mannahnin]

That said, I think that that the prevalence of random rolling for stats (usually in order) prevented the idea of "character builds" being, well, a thing. Also the fact that magic items were so important to your abilities, and they were pretty random. Between these two factors, character builds ... it was a different world. Other than creating higher-level characters for one-shots (for example), it never occurred to me to "build a character," because I always would discover the character through serendipity and discovery through play- first the rolls that would reveal what strengths and weaknesses that PC had (and help guide me to a class), and then the magic items would further move me in certain directions.

We always rolled ability scores (with, of course, generous house rules) in 3.x. The biggest factor in "character builds" IME was prestige classes. Each had prerequisites, from as simple as a certain race to a minimum BAB or caster level, to more in-depth like having specific feats or x number of ranks in particular skills. If you wanted to qualify for a given prestige class it behooved you to pre-plan and make sure you acquired the prerequisites efficiently so you could qualify as soon as possible. This necessitated pre-planning advancement.

That plus a la carte multiclassing created a totally different advancement environment from 1974-1999 A/D&D, in which almost all of your character advancement was pre-set at first level.

1. Method V to create the PC. This was the infamous introduction of "Choose your class, roll up to 9d6, automatically get the minimum score" generation. In other words, AFAIK, this was the first official way in D&D to choose a class, then get your ability scores. Did Gygax restrict it to humans? OF COURSE HE DID! Did people read that, and ignore it? YEP.

I never knew anyone who allowed this method, though in fairness I didn't play a lot of 1E. I had the books, but by the time my brother and I found a regular group we were on to 2E.

2. Weapon Specialization. Before UA's weapon specialization, martial characters would often end up with using the best and coolest magical weapon they found. Yeah, there were a LOT OF SWORDS. But also some weird stuff, just because that's what you found. After specialization, characters would choose their weapon, and just ... you know, keep on looking for a magical version of that particular thing.

TBF the weapon proficiency rules in the PH already push this pretty hard. Even the Fighter non-proficiency penalty of -2 is crappy. But yeah.

In 2E we had the same phenomenon, arguably worse with the Complete Fighters Handbook in play, which allowed use of extra languages from Intelligence to be applied as extra proficiencies instead, but also gave weapon style specializations (including ambidexterity and TWF) to spend them on.

One of the things I really like about B/X and co is the general "fighters and thieves just use any weapon" style of weapon proficiencies, so you can use whatever cool magic stuff you find with no penalty. I appreciate that 5E didn't perpetuate weapon specialization. The fighting styles still can incline players to limit themselves, but not as much so.

 

[Willie the Duck]

So I would say that, to a very limited extent, character builds and character optimization has always been present in D&D since the beginning. Back in 0E, I can remember one person who read the supplement Gods, Demogods & Heroes and invariably had his characters worship Uller because it granted a 2" bonus to movement.

That said, I think that that the prevalence of random rolling for stats (usually in order) prevented the idea of "character builds" being, well, a thing. Also the fact that magic items were so important to your abilities, and they were pretty random.

I think it ends up being a situation where we each define the term/the limits of the term before deciding when it started.

On some level, just the existence of rolling for attributes (and starting hp and gold) means there's some notion of excelling with (/being able to plan out) a character's trajectory outside of actually playing them (and the emergent quality thereof). That seems to me to be the primordial nub of what builds and optimization are (or at least are attempting to do).

Adding weapon proficiencies with AD&D certainly started there being decisions outside of play session that influenced success. That was kinda muted, I feel, since there were so few real decisions/such optimal choices (especially once you knew if your DM used the DMG magic weapon distribution and/or the WvsAC rules).

Sacrosanct's mention of all those different alternate classes (and races/species) that showed up in Dragon and homebrew) certainly seem to mine the same vein.

Likewise with AD&D just having specific races that could be certain classes (/multiclasses) and alter stats to achieve the minimums necessary (and a host of very specific mins, maxes, and prerequisites for those races and classes) certainly fostered poring over those options and mentally combining them well outside of an actual game being played.

Certainly the mindset of planning out your character would have come in from outside sources like GURPS or Champions (or Traveller for ships) --or predating D&D in building point-buy armies for wargames-- well before UA.

I will agree, that --in my personal gaming experience-- Unearthed Arcana is a watershed in how things were thought of. Allowing/getting the DM to allow a specific Dragon magazine class in a campaign was an anecdotal event, akin to a really convenient treasure find. Opening up UA and picking the race+class+proficiencies/specialization you were going to choose to play next (dice willing) was a process you did.

 

[billd91]

Ahem. Anyway, I'd argue that there were three major changes that happened, listed in order of importance:

1. Method V to create the PC. This was the infamous introduction of "Choose your class, roll up to 9d6, automatically get the minimum score" generation. In other words, AFAIK, this was the first official way in D&D to choose a class, then get your ability scores. Did Gygax restrict it to humans? OF COURSE HE DID! Did people read that, and ignore it? YEP.

I don’t think I know anybody who seriously used this method. But ultimately, any method of rolling stats (we used 4d6keep3, arrange to suit) beyond 3d6 in order was all about optimization/deliberate character build.

2. Weapon Specialization. Before UA's weapon specialization, martial characters would often end up with using the best and coolest magical weapon they found. Yeah, there were a LOT OF SWORDS. But also some weird stuff, just because that's what you found. After specialization, characters would choose their weapon, and just ... you know, keep on looking for a magical version of that particular thing.

Lots of swords but even with the PH, you could see which ones nobody would take - broad sword. Looking at damage, why would anyone take the broadsword over the long sword? Then when you learn that 70% of random magic swords are long swords, the choice is pretty clear.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

So a few quick responses to the comments, and why I stand by my earlier post about why UA was such a sea change.

1. Obviously, different tables played differently. There were all sorts of house rules. But Method V was the first printed rule in D&D in an official book that specified that you choose you class first, then you rolled your abilities for that class. Even if your table didn't use it (or even know of it), this was the introduction of the idea that you choose your class first. Even with other concepts (including 4d6k1, arrange) you couldn't choose a class first, because you might not hit the required minimums, or what you rolled even when you arranged it, might not fit certain classes.

2. A lot of tables didn't incorporate the AD&D weapon proficiency system (they were coming from 0E). But for those who did, here is a brief refresher-
If you were a fighter, you started with 4. You gained one every three levels. The wording of the rule is unclear, but it was common for many people I played with to choose two or three weapons at the beginning and leave the remaining slots open (in case they found a magic weapon of another type). Otherwise, they'd have to wait for fourth level to use it. Why does this matter? Yes, by the tables long swords were more common. But they weren't ALL OF THEM. There were some countervailing issues-
a. Modules. It would be a shame if you got Blackrazor, Whelm, and Wave ... (bastard sword, hammer, trident) and everyone is like, "Oops, not long swords!" There's a weird sprinkling of awesome weapons in modules, and they aren't all long swords.
b. Random, man. Yes, swords had their own category (III.G). But ... there were other weapons sprinkled in the other tables (some were in the miscellaneous tables, III.E.1.-5*, and some were in the Rods, Staves, and Wands table, III.D), and one table is all the other weapons, some of which are cool (the HOLY TRINITY). But yes, let's say you are going random, and you reasonably assume that 70% of magic swords are long swords. But 20% are broad swords. You luck out and find a Holy Avenger. Or Vorpal Weapon. Or Sword of Dancing. Or you find a two-handed sword of life stealing. Suddenly, you might want to switch up your sword game. ....

....UNTIL UA. Why? Because fighters and rangers were going to specialize. And that meant deciding that you were using two proficiencies to specialize (three if its a bow), then another slot for double specialization in a melee weapon.

So that's three slots. You get +3/+3 and more attacks (let's ignore bows for now). If you find a different weapon in the future, in order to use it .... you have to burn THREE proficiency slots to get to where you where.

So fighter or ranger wants to have bow and double weapon specialization. That's six slots. That's all their slots until level 10. That means that if they find any other weapon, they can first become proficient at it at level 10.

Which is a difference. If you're playing a fighter or ranger and using the specialization rules, you go from "easily using new weapons" to "designing your character to use one or two specific weapons, period." Because specialization is such a massive martial advantage.



*Fun-ish fact- there are three magic tridents in the miscellaneous item table (four if you count the cursed one ... GYGAX!!!!). All of them are magic weapons. One is fighter only, but the other two? They are C-F-T, useable by Clerics and Thieves. .... Clerics and Thieves can't use tridents.

 

[Voadam]

1. Method V to create the PC. This was the infamous introduction of "Choose your class, roll up to 9d6, automatically get the minimum score" generation. In other words, AFAIK, this was the first official way in D&D to choose a class, then get your ability scores. Did Gygax restrict it to humans? OF COURSE HE DID! Did people read that, and ignore it? YEP.

Cheaters.

For my long term AD&D campaign I allowed anything from official sources from stuff I had (UA and OA at the time and then some Dragon and Best of Dragon options) but I did it fairly RAW.

The party ended up mostly not human rolls with four using options from the DMG to get the sweet, sweet drow and grugach elf races. One person went with human fighter rolls. Later players went with DMG rolls to get the Best of Dragon winged elf race and archer class (died being one shotted by the New Master his first game but still made me rethink my allowing in anything policy) and one had a copy of the Dragon article with the Anti paladin which I let in for the one game he could come to, but I was strict enough not to let him use the UA paladin rolls.

Later on there was a Dragon article with Demi Human rolls which I believe had a base number of dice pool per stat for each race then a pool of dice to add to choice of stats to allow for going for specific classes or builds, not as many dice as the human rolls charts but still a lot and more of a build choice.

 

[Voadam]

*Fun-ish fact- there are three magic tridents in the miscellaneous item table (four if you count the cursed one ... GYGAX!!!!). All of them are magic weapons. One is fighter only, but the other two? They are C-F-T, useable by Clerics and Thieves. .... Clerics and Thieves can't use tridents.

Not as weapons, but they could still use such a trident as a low charge extra-long wand of fish command or marine predator detection.

Still really weird that these four tridents are in the miscellaneous magic item tables and then the miscellaneous magic weapon table has one different magical trident.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Still really weird that these four tridents are in the miscellaneous magic item tables and then the miscellaneous magic weapon table has one different magical trident.

Even weirder ... the only magical trident on the actual miscellaneous magic weapon table was the (in)famous convertible Trident/Military Fork +3!

That's right, it was both a dessert topping and a floor wax trident and a military fork, convertible at will! Which at my table led to the endless debate-
Wait, do I need to be proficient in both tridents and military forks?

.....GYGAX!!!!!!