Save or Die: Yea or Nay?

Save or Die


As a player, I thoroughly enjoy the sense of danger that comes from the possibility of a " bug zapper" type of death that may happen from time to time. After 44 pages of differing opinions we all like what we like in our games. I happen to prefer the threat of an instant zap. It makes play seem more exciting to me in a way that SSSD just doesn't deliver for whatever reason. Since a picture is worth a thousand posts I would just hate to feel like this guy during a game:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLlUgilKqms]YouTube - Austin Powers 1- Stoooooooooooooooop![/ame]

;)
 

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I won't object to anyone who wants to run it differently. But I will continue to disagree with anyone who insists that those rulings are by the book, or that a DM who runs them differently is at fault or a "bad DM".

Just to be clear, you are shifting the goalposts quite a bit.

The original argument is:

1. Sneaky PC looks into room which contains a bodak.
2. DM tells player that PC must make a save vs. the bodak's gaze attack.
3. I say that this is a case of bad DMing, as the DM failed to take the circumstances into account and arbitrarily chose the result most likely to screw the players.
4. The counter-claim is that the DM should not be faulted for going by the book....implying or outright stating that the RAW claims that anyone who sees a bodak must save, based on the first bullet point under "Gaze Attacks" in the DMG (or SRD replicating that bullet point).
5. This is shown to be an incomplete reading.
6. A claim is made that any other reading is "house ruling", apparently even if consistent with the RAW.
7. I then claim that, if determining whether or not the rogue meets the bodak's gaze is house ruling, so too is merely claiming that he does so arbitrarily.

Now, it may be true that "By the rules, if you can see a creature's eyes, you are vulnerable to its gaze attack" if "vulnerable to its gaze attack" is taken to mean "are in a position where you might have to make a saving throw."

The specific context of the rule, though is looking "the thing in its eye" and catching "the thing's eye". Neither of these mean "can see the thing's eye". If you equate the two, that is a house rule.

Arguing about what it means to "meet a gaze" is, apparently, fruitless, if the standard English language usage is no to be applied. Thankfully, it is a side point, and not the main argument doesn't rely upon it.

You are absolutely correct, and my bad for how I phrased it. Randomly determining something on the spot or the set-up of the encounter is just a standard part of DMing. If it was a generalized rule ("At any given time, there is only a 30% chance for any creature to be looking in your direction in combat") it would be a genuine house rule.

My bad, and thanks for calling me on that!

Of course, glad to see that you moved back from this.



RC
 

Totally not getting re-involved here, but, stumbled over this image and thought it was appropriate:

medusa2web.jpg
 

Just to be clear, you are shifting the goalposts quite a bit.

The original argument is:

1. Sneaky PC looks into room which contains a bodak.
2. DM tells player that PC must make a save vs. the bodak's gaze attack.
3. I say that this is a case of bad DMing, as the DM failed to take the circumstances into account and arbitrarily chose the result most likely to screw the players.
4. The counter-claim is that the DM should not be faulted for going by the book....implying or outright stating that the RAW claims that anyone who sees a bodak must save, based on the first bullet point under "Gaze Attacks" in the DMG (or SRD replicating that bullet point).

Interesting, but... not quite accurate.

The claim was made that because the rogue was hidden, the Bodak was thus unlikely to be looking in its direction. Some considered this to be a common sense situation where the rules should be overriden. You took it a step further, and said that by the very rules themselves, the DM was going against the rules in having the player make a save.

To argue that point, you didn't make the argument that he made a bad and arbitrary call - you made the claim that his call was against the rules, and that going by RAW, the Bodak's face couldn't be visible from his viewpoint. You later revised this claim to instead be that he couldn't meet gazes with the Bodak while hidden, and that if he could, he would no longer be hidden.

There's a couple claims in there I disagree with.

One, that whether the Bodak's face is visible is in any way connected with him being hidden. It isn't. The DM could decide the Bodak's positioning based on any number of factors, or use random chance to determine it. In this case, he was informed by the adventure of its position and that its responsibility was to watch the entrance for intruders - elements that, given the window the rogue was looking from, resulted in its features being clearly visible to him.

If you feel that was a bad and arbitrary ruling, fair enough. I simply find it strange, though, since after so many arguments in favor of a logically consistent setting, you would prefer a DM make a ruling solely on a metagame element and a desire to softball things for the player.

5. This is shown to be an incomplete reading.
6. A claim is made that any other reading is "house ruling", apparently even if consistent with the RAW.

The rule say that "A gaze attack takes effect when opponents look at the creature's eyes."

You, and others, have made the claim that the gaze attack only works if those involved actively meet each other's gaze. Some claiming that is the more mythic way for such an ability to work. Maybe, maybe not. Either way, though, it is not how the rules clearly state it works, which means your reading is absolutely a house rule.

7. I then claim that, if determining whether or not the rogue meets the bodak's gaze is house ruling, so too is merely claiming that he does so arbitrarily.

Again, the original claim that I labelled a house rule was that because a rogue was hidden, this implied that the Bodak wasn't looking in his direction. This is a house rule. Putting the issue of gaze attacks entirely aside, you can hide from creature's looking in your direction as long as you have cover or concealment.

Every time I have raised this point, you've instead abruptly stopped responding to that portion of the argument, or called it an unrelated topic and tried to switch the focus of the discussion.

You were the one who claimed that it was "a house rule, at best" that a rogue looking in the window would be subject to a Bodak's gaze. There was no connection to that statement and any claim on my behalf that whether the rogue meets the Bodak's gaze was a house rule.

Note that by making that claim, you aren't just saying that it isn't likely for a creature to meet the Bodak's gaze - you are, again, saying that it is outright against the rules. That there is something in the rules such that it is not possible for a hidden character to meet a Bodak's gaze.

Despite not having, at any point, put forward any evidence for this - and having been presented with several pieces of evidence that directly contradict such a position.

Now, it may be true that "By the rules, if you can see a creature's eyes, you are vulnerable to its gaze attack" if "vulnerable to its gaze attack" is taken to mean "are in a position where you might have to make a saving throw."

The specific context of the rule, though is looking "the thing in its eye" and catching "the thing's eye". Neither of these mean "can see the thing's eye". If you equate the two, that is a house rule.

Here is the actual rules quote, one more time: "A gaze attack takes effect when opponents look at the creature's eyes."

It does not get clearer than that. You are trying to add additional restrictions to this by making the claim of context. The quotes you have provided? Are from a descriptive narrative giving examples of characters being affected by a creature's gaze attack. That flavor text helps show how the ability works, yes, but it does not override the actual rules themselves.

Here are what seem to have been the core arguments that have been made, and here are my barebones objections to them:

Claim: If you are hidden, it means the opponent is most likely looking in another objection.

Rebuttal: No, since if this was true, you could automatically spot a hidden figure by declaring that you are looking at the shadows in which they are hiding - which is not the case. Instead, even if you look at their hiding spot, you make a Spot check opposed by their Hide check, and if you fail, you do not see them unless you in some fashion remove or negate their concealment or cover.


Claim: A gaze attack requires actively meeting the gaze of the creature, not simply viewing its eyes.

Rebuttal: No, a gaze attack simply requires viewing its eyes, based on the opening line of the gaze attack entry in the monster manual, "A gaze attack takes effect when opponents look at the creature's eyes."
 

I just want to comment on a couple items in your post...

Interesting, but... not quite accurate.

The claim was made that because the rogue was hidden, the Bodak was thus unlikely to be looking in its direction. Some considered this to be a common sense situation where the rules should be overriden.
Not quite true - the original description of what happened suggested that merely looking at the bodak forced the save. What was being objected too was the idea that merely seeing the creature = meeting its gaze. That is not true according to the rules regardless of what side of this discussion you are on.

One, that whether the Bodak's face is visible is in any way connected with him being hidden. It isn't. The DM could decide the Bodak's positioning based on any number of factors, or use random chance to determine it. In this case, he was informed by the adventure of its position and that its responsibility was to watch the entrance for intruders - elements that, given the window the rogue was looking from, resulted in its features being clearly visible to him.
Perhaps I missed something but where was this additional information about the scenario posted?
 

Can we hear about how people dealt with the SoD situation in actual play or should we continue to discuss abstract rules and theory?
 


Can we hear about how people dealt with the SoD situation in actual play or should we continue to discuss abstract rules and theory?

Sure. In our group we have had deaths, petrification, paralysis, and even characters turned into green slime. We dealt with it by shrugging it off, and either restoring the character or replacing him/her with another adventurer because we are playing a game and sometimes bad things happen. The need to specifically deal with the problem as if it's more than that can come with treating the game as more than what it is.
 

Can we hear about how people dealt with the SoD situation in actual play or should we continue to discuss abstract rules and theory?

This is the internet. What do you think?

Two examples come to mind.

G2, 3.0 conversion, 8th level PCs. The PCs know that the rift has frost giants and their allies, although exact nature of allies is unknown. Rouge turns invisible and moves ahead to scout. He peers into a room with three yeti, fails one of the three saving throws, and is paralyzed. I don't recall how the yeti found him - maybe they had scent in the conversion the DM was using - but the rogue is mostly eaten before the rest of the party can arrive. The player shrugs it off, although there is general agreement that multiple creatures with gaze is probably a higher EL than would otherwise be indicated.

Expedition to Ruins of Castle Greyhawk, 3.5, 11th level PCs. We learn from a rescued NPC that a
half-dragon basilisk or dracolisk
lairs in a cavern below. We approach the cavern, several prepatory spells are cast, but the creature hears us and moves closer. Initiative is rolled, and my scout is first. I strongly consider having him not move into the cave, not because the PC would be afraid, but because I seem to have bad luck and "I have a bad feeling about this". My PC moves in, averts eyes from the creature, and prompty fails the 50% and saving throw. I'm miffed for a few minutes, not because of the encounter which I think is actually well designed, but because of the continuing "bad luck".
 

Not quite true - the original description of what happened suggested that merely looking at the bodak forced the save. What was being objected too was the idea that merely seeing the creature = meeting its gaze. That is not true according to the rules regardless of what side of this discussion you are on.

Well, no, but the response seemed to have been that there was no acceptable scenario in which the rogue could look into the room and meet the Bodak's gaze while hidden. And the claim was, specifically, that because the rogue was hidden, the Bodak was likely looking away from it.

Some relevant quotes:
"Successful sneaking means that the creature is not meeting your gaze" is not a very high bar for common sense. If a creature is meeting your gaze, it knows you are there. I can think of no counter example. If a creature doesn't know you are there, perforce, it is not meeting your gaze. Any other ruling, IMHO, is a bad ruling, regardless of the advice given in the rulebooks.
The PC rogue sneaks up to the cabin and peers in the window. He does so successfully, which rather indicates that the inhabitant(s) are not looking at him.
While it is conceivable that a rogue might be hidden and end up looking straight into the creatures eyes, occams razor suggests that if he has correctly hidden, then that is a particularly unlikely result.

My argument has been that it is entirely possible to have a scenario in which the hidden rogue can view the eyes of a Bodak, which is what the rules require for him to have to make a save against the Gaze attack.

Could there be other scenarios in which the Bodak is looking away? Absolutely. But that wasn't what people were saying. They were saying that my scenario - one in which a rogue could see the Bodak - was wrong. Was either bad DMing for ignoring common sense, or was outright incorrect by the rules.

And those positions seemed to be based, primarily, on two seperate things:
1) That creatures are automatically assumed to be looking away from anyone who is hiding; and
2) That you can safely look at the eyes of a Bodak without any ill effect as long as you aren't 'actively meeting its gaze'.

Both of which, I feel, I have provided successful rebuttals to above.

Perhaps I missed something but where was this additional information about the scenario posted?

I think I mentioned it was set to guard the place relatively early on (when asked if it would be more reasonable for its gaze to be turned off.) I think I set forward all of those elements in more precise terms when we were discussing how a DM might decide where a creature could be in the room.

I'm not sure how much it changes things, though. The message people seemed to be saying was that a DM was at fault for any scenario in which a hidden rogue could meet the Bodak's gaze, regardless of how appropriate it might be or not. If I misread that from some people, and was applying RC's viewpoints to other less extreme ones, then my apologies for doing so.
 

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