Long Combats are Bad

The whole thing should take maybe five minutes, start to finish, but still produce something vaguely like the resource burn of hacking your way through the fight.

Yes, but is it fun?

If the PCs are going to burn through resources, the players ought to get something for that. The usual thing they get is fun in some form - be it drama, tactical exercise, or what have you.

I think we have a fundamental point of adventure design here to consider - why am I including fights (or other conflicts) in the adventure if I know beforehand they will be boring? Rather than find another resolution system, why not just excise those fights that aren't going to be interesting?
 

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Well, here is my system that we've been using for the past few months.

[sblock]SKILL COMBAT

1. Make Contact
• Encounter Distance: In a situation where the encounter distance is unknown, roll on the following table to determine how far apart the groups are:
Terrain Type : Distance in Squares
Dungeon: 4d6
Plains: 1d10x10
Hills/Moor/Mountains: 3d10
Forest/Swamp: 3d8
Road: 1d20+10
• Surprise: If one or both groups are unaware of the other, there is a chance for surprise. If both sides are aware of each other, both sides may act in the first round.
i. Ambush: A side trying to ambush rolls Stealth vs. the Passive Perception of the other side. The character with the lowest Stealth modifier makes the roll; others may Aid if they take an appropriate action. This can result in both sides gaining Surprise.
ii. Lookout: A side that is actively keeping watch may roll Perception. There is only one roll; others may aid. The character who rolls is the one who is taking the most appropriate action.
iii. Surprised: Characters who are Surprised may not act in the first round. They grant Combat Advantage.
• Reaction Roll: If the monster's disposition to the PCs is unknown, roll on the following table to determine their reaction:
2d6 Roll:Reaction:Successes
2:Immediate Attack:--
3-5:Hostile, possible attack:8
6-8:Uncertain, monster confused:6
9-11:No attack, monster leaves or considers offers:4
12:Looking to make friends:2
• Negotiation: If the two sides talk it out, run a skill challenge. The number of successes needed before 3 failures is determined by the reaction roll, as indicated in the above table.

2. Beginning of Round
• Any beginning of round things take place here; standing in a zone, for example.

3. Declare Actions
• Free & Clear; only until everyone's happy with their action do you proceed. Players may change their action depending on what the other side has declared.
• If you can do it, you can do it, but you need to declare it. This includes declaring any immediate actions or triggered actions, such as OAs, a Fighter's Combat Challenge, a Shield spell, etc. If you don't declare it as part of your action you don't do it; you can't add an action, no matter its type, later on in the round.
• You can't wait to see what happens in the round - no delaying actions. You have to take your chances with the roll.


4. Determine Modifiers
• Modifiers to the d20 roll are determined based on the description of the action. All applicable modifiers are added. Use the following to determine what the modifiers are:
• Select a single stat modifier to apply. The stat that is chosen is the one that's most appropriate to the action.
STR Strength and raw power.
CON Endurance and physical stamina.
DEX Physical quickness and precision.
INT Mental quickness and reasoning.
WIS Mental stamina and willpower.
CHA Social power, force, and presence.
• If a power (exploit, prayer, or spell) is used, most of the time the stat associated with that power will be appropriate, though not always.
e.g. shoving your hand down the throat of a monster and casting Lance of Faith will use STR, not WIS.
• Select one of the following modifiers, choosing the one that comes first in this list:
Action:Modifier
An attack with a weapon or casting an offensive spell (e.g. swinging your sword; casting Magic Missile):Item (proficiency + magic), plus any class bonus (e.g. Rogue’s Weapon Talent)
Directly affect an opponent (e.g. shouting at your opponent to surrender; examining his fighting style for a weakness):Skill
Moving (e.g. trying to climb a tree; turning tail and running; attempting to hide):Skill
Defending yourself (holding your shield up; parrying a blow with your sword):Defence (1d20 + Defence – 10)
Anything else (e.g. Trying to cast Healing Word before your friend is killed; trying to shut a door before your foe can come through it):Initiative

• If you have a skill that applies, add in a single +2 bonus.
e.g. Moving into the shadows to hide and then casting a spell will give you a +2 bonus if you have a skill that applies to hiding in shadows.
• If your action gives you an advantage, add in a +2 bonus.
e.g. Flanking, surprise, prone foe, higher ground, etc.

5. DM sets DCs
• Based on the description of the action, the DM sets the DC for the action. Select the first that applies from the following list:
Action : DC
You try to push, overpower, or manhandle someone. : Fortitude
You try to touch or tag someone. : Reflex
You try to attack someone's mind or convince someone of something.:Will
You try to hurt someone physically. : Armour Class
You are matching skills with someone. : 10 + their skill modifier
You are trying to do something else. : DC set by the opposition’s level, using the table on page 42 of the DMG. A Hard result indicates a stunning success, a Moderate result indicates a marginal success, an Easy result indicates a marginal failure, and below Easy indicates a large failure.

6. Take Action
• Everyone rolls at once. Actions are simultaneous, there are no turn-by-turn actions.
• Actions are resolved in order from highest to lowest modified roll, if it matters. If two or more rolls are tied, determined resolution order by rolling Init.
• When one action has multiple targets, the first roll determines the order. When your action goes off, roll the rest of them. This goes for things like OAs and other triggered actions like that.
7. Resolve Actions
• Skill checks are resolved in the usual manner.
• Damage/Hit Points:
Monster Hit Points by Role and Level
Level:Minion:Normal:Elite:Solo
1-3: 1 : 4 : 8 : 20
4-6: 2 : 6 : 12 : 30
7-9: 3 : 8 : 16 : 40
Brutes add 1

PC Hit Points by Level
Level : 4 : 5 :6+
1-3: 6 : 8 : 10
4-6: 9 : 12 : 15
7-9: 12 : 16 : 20
Add 1/2 CON modifier to the number of hits.

Monster and PC Damage
Level Base Damage
1-3 2
4-6 3
7-9 4
Action : Damage Mod
At-Will power or Basic Attack : +0
Power that adds two stats to damage : +1
No modifier to damage : -1
No damage dice : -1
Using d4s for damage : -1
Using d12s for damage : +1
Critical hit (with high-crit weapon) : +1 (+2)
1-5 ongoing or extra damage : +1
6-10 ongoing or extra damage : +2
11-15 ongoing or extra damage : +3
16+ ongoing or extra damage : +4
2[W] or two dice of damage : +1
3[W] or three dice of damage : +2
4[W] or more, or 4+ dice of damage : +3
Half damage on a miss : ½, round up
Hunter’s Quarry, Sneak Attack, Warlock’s Curse : +1
You strike at a vulnerable spot and your opponent has no way to avoid the attack : +1

Temporary Hit Points : Temporary Hits
1-5 : 1
6-10 : 2
11-15 : 3
16+ : 4


8. End of Round
• Morale checks, if necessary. A Will roll against an Easy DC of the party's level. Can be triggered by actions taking during the round, as well as those listed here.
Triggers : Modifiers to DC
Leader bloodied : +2
Leader screwed (blinded, stunned, dazed + immobilized, etc.) : +2
Leader dead : +4
1/2 monsters bloodied : +2
1/2 monsters screwed : +2
1/2 monsters dead : +4
Per PC bloodied/screwed : -2
Per dead/unconcious PC : -4

• If the morale check is failed, the monsters change their tactics - running, surrendering, attempting a parley, bribe, blowing limited resources, falling back, etc.
• Saving Throws from effects ongoing from the beginning of the round. If a saving throw was granted during the round, or a monster can make an immediate saving throw (eg. hobgoblins), they can do that now.
9. Repeat Steps 2-8
10. Shake it Out
• Actual hit point damage is determined.
Round all damage into healing surge amounts, rounding up (eg. A fighter with 10 hits/28 HP takes 2 damage; that's 1 healing surge, or 7 HP.)[/sblock]
 

I completely agree that Umbran is asking the right question, but the way I would answer it is "I think it would make the game as a whole more fun." The current situation in my game is that every combat takes forever, including ones that are not hugely important or tactically interesting. That means that I'm left with three choices: cut many of the combats altogether; just accept that sometimes we'll spend an hour hacking through combats that are less fun than the combats around the corner; or come up with some way to eliminate the time spent dealing with some of the combats while retaining them for purposes of world, plot, and resource expenditure. Option B is by assumption not a fun one, because my starting point is that I'm spending too much time playing out combats where I don't really care about the details and I'm not having enough fun. So the question is whether to go with Option A or Option C. Option A is often a good one--in many of the con games I right, I design in a very small number of fights. Maybe there's only one fight in the four hour game.

But sometimes I want to include more combat for reasons of versimilitude or story or so that other choices the PCs make are more meaningful. Do we fight through the guards or try to distract them and sneak past? Do we spend extra time searching for secret doors, or do we move quickly so that we can avoid the risk of encountering a guard patrol? Either could be a good option; having that choice can be fun for the PCs. Fighting the guard fight and running out of time to fight the big bad in this session, not so much. And my players rarely face the choice between pressing on when they're low on resources, or cutting and running--my sessions don't last long enough for them to run out of resources, which means they don't ever get to make what can be a fun and interesting choice.

So, sure, plenty of people have fun fighting out every fight. I assume that there are some people who enjoy 4e hack fests which are fight after fight after fight. But I want to have more time for other aspects of play, and more time for big fights and less time spent on small fights. In some games, cutting the small fights altogether would be a good option, but I think that the possibility of those fights can make my game more fun... but only if we don't have to spend an hour on them. That's where I see a "kill challenge" sort of system coming in handy.

(I agree that making the system less purely mechanistic would be a good thing, provided that it remained fast. I'd happily take a system that takes 10 minutes but is filled with interesting choices over one that takes 5 minutes but is mechanical. But I'd rather have the option of one that takes 5 minutes and is mechanical instead of having to use 4e's core rules and fight an hour long fight every time.)
 

Another issue is Vancian magic, and Action Points. The current system, I believe, assumes about four combat encounters per day, three the same approximate level as the PCs, during which they are expected to conserve APs and dailies, and one at the party level + 4, in which the players must use dailies and spend APs to win. If they have no dailies or APs then they should lose.

I assume that it is the three equal level encounters that are replaced by skill challenges, leaving only the +4 boss encounter. The skill challenges should therefore have a chance of depleting not only healing surges, but APs and dailies.

Incidentally this is one reason why the lesser fights are supposed to be meaningful, there is a chance that they can go bad and force the players to use up dailies, APs or an excessive amount of surges. My experience so far has been that equal level fights can also knock one PC to zero hit points fairly often, but it's not extensive enough yet to count for much.
 
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I think we have a fundamental point of adventure design here to consider - why am I including fights (or other conflicts) in the adventure if I know beforehand they will be boring? Rather than find another resolution system, why not just excise those fights that aren't going to be interesting?
Again, resource management.

Wading through dozens of mooks before getting to the BBEG might not be as entertaining as the BBEG battle, but at the design level the mooks still have a job to do: tenderize the PCs so they're nice and chewy when they get to the BBEG. :)

Also, there's the realism aspect to consider. Sure, some BBEGs are loners or only have a very few companions - most dragons, for instance, are like this - but if you're a BBEG planning to take over the world (in any genre) you're first going to surround yourself with an army of mooks as a defense.

There's also wandering monsters. I'm not a huge fan of wandering monsters in what is otherwise a contained dungeon setting unless they make sense (e.g. guard patrols, or things that already live there just going about their business), but in the wilderness they're a fact of life...or death...and when the hungry bears wander into your camp looking for food you just gotta deal with it.

Lan-"don't feed the bears"-efan
 

LostSoul: How quick is your system? It looks promising as a mid-weight system (between the heavy weight approach of standard 4e resolution and a light system like the one I was proposing). But I don't have a sense of how long it takes a group of 5 or 6 PCs to take on a normal encounter using that system--10 minutes? Half an hour?
 

But sometimes I want to include more combat for reasons of versimilitude or story or so that other choices the PCs make are more meaningful. Do we fight through the guards or try to distract them and sneak past? Do we spend extra time searching for secret doors, or do we move quickly so that we can avoid the risk of encountering a guard patrol? Either could be a good option; having that choice can be fun for the PCs. Fighting the guard fight and running out of time to fight the big bad in this session, not so much. And my players rarely face the choice between pressing on when they're low on resources, or cutting and running--my sessions don't last long enough for them to run out of resources, which means they don't ever get to make what can be a fun and interesting choice.
Er...something doesn't quite parse here.

What has the end of the session got to do with anything? If they don't make the choice now it'll still be waiting for them next session...their resources will still be depleted, the "big bad" will still be waiting, and so on.

Or do you have a one-session limit on any given adventure?

Lanefan
 


Lanefan: I agree with your comment in general, but in my particular case I run a game where the player mix changes between sessions and there are sometimes long gaps between sessions (which can result in players losing track of their resources). Swapping out PCs in the dungeon is awkward--we've done it, but it's not ideal--and can produce weird results. As a result, most of my sessions end with the PCs returning to a safe base and taking an extended rest. The session breaks take on in-game significance for metagame and practicality reasons. Also, I prefer when possible to have sessions that feel dramatically complete in and of themselves, and a completed unit of adventuring tends to do that more than ending in the midst of it.
 

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