Magic Item Wishlist: Yea or Nay?

[I'm A Banana]

At the end of the day, wish lists are a tool for the DM to find out at least one aspect of what the players want out of his game.

Yeah, but as a DM, what I want to do is give my players what they want. So with a wishlist, I feel an obligation, in the spirit of helping my players play the awesome heroes that they envision themselves playing, to give them the shiny metal performance enhancers that they feel better completes their vision of their awesome hero. If I withhold their desired items from them, I feel that I need a justification.

I think that it also creates a sort of "generic Christmas gift" feel. If I ask for a brand new 10-speed mountain bike and I get a five-year-old used Schwinn with tassles on the handlebars, that's going to feel a little like I've been cheated. Or to Generic Food Metaphor it, if I want to get a big, beefy, grill-fried hamburger and I get a MacDonald's hamburger, I'm going to feel a little like my request was ignored. This isn't what I asked for. Even if the DM is allowed to do it, even if there's no actual mandate, there's certainly something to the idea that putting the item on a wishlist creates an expectation for that item, and if you get something lesser or inferior, or just different, it's going to feel a little hacked. At the very least, it's something to sell in order to save up to get what you really want.

That might just be me at my table, though.

It does make me happy that WotC is going about changing how that works in 4e now.

 

[Lanefan]

Someone earlier said that if a character says they are out looking for something, and they quest for it, they might get it.

How is that different than a wish list?

Your player said they wanted it, you found a way to get it into the story to get it in their hands.

I'm confused that people would draw a super fine distinction here.

I suppose an extreme - but I'm sure not unheard-of - example of what I consider a negative-connotation wish list would be the player who at the start of the campaign hands the DM a list of items and levels and says something like "I want these items by these levels" as the items (note plural) have been slotted in as part of the character's build. In other words, story be damned, just give me the items.

That to me is a quite coarse distinction from a character hearing about some legendary item as part of the in-game play and then going off on a quest to find it.

Lanefan

 

[FireLance]

Someone earlier said that if a character says they are out looking for something, and they quest for it, they might get it.

To me, this is one way that wish lists can work. Some posters might still have problems with this approach, since they feel that the character's awareness of the magic item in the first place is metagame knowledge. However, a DM can work around that by ensuring that rumors of the magic item's abilities reach the character before he sets out to find it.

I believe what some other posters have problems with is when the player gives the DM his wish list of magic items and the magic items just show up in the adventure without any conscious effort on the part of the character to look for them. From the character's perspective, he should be excited because he has found a new, interesting item that is perfect for him. However, from the player's perspective, his excitement could be tempered because the magic item his character found is one that he was expecting. This disconnect between the character's emotions and the player's emotions might spoil the immersion into the character for some players, and they might dislike wish lists for that reason. Some DMs might also dislike this approach because it means that the character is getting a magic item that is very useful for him without any extra effort on his part, and they feel it skews the balance of work and reward.

However, while using wish lists in this manner might not work for such players and DMs, the other approach to wish lists, in which the characters actively quest for the magic items they want, might be more suitable for them. To me, it is simply a matter of using wish lists in the way that best fits you and your group.

 

[FireLance]

I think that it also creates a sort of "generic Christmas gift" feel. If I ask for a brand new 10-speed mountain bike and I get a five-year-old used Schwinn with tassles on the handlebars, that's going to feel a little like I've been cheated. Or to Generic Food Metaphor it, if I want to get a big, beefy, grill-fried hamburger and I get a MacDonald's hamburger, I'm going to feel a little like my request was ignored. This isn't what I asked for. Even if the DM is allowed to do it, even if there's no actual mandate, there's certainly something to the idea that putting the item on a wishlist creates an expectation for that item, and if you get something lesser or inferior, or just different, it's going to feel a little hacked. At the very least, it's something to sell in order to save up to get what you really want.

Naturally, YMMV, but for me, the feeling of wanting something, not saying anything, and getting something completely different is at least as bad as the feeling of wanting something, communicating it, and getting something else which is at least close to what I want.

Perhaps I'm just more focused on the outcome of how close is the item I get to what I want.

 

[DragonLancer]

As DM, part of the fun for me is to surprise the players. It wouldn't be that fun for me giving the players everything they want or expect. And if I give them something I thought they'd like but they didn't, then they can sell it. Then I'd just try again.

I fully agree with this. Treasure isn't placed by the powers that be for the player characters. If they want something specific then let them save up the gold and the favours in return for it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Naturally, YMMV, but for me, the feeling of wanting something, not saying anything, and getting something completely different is at least as bad as the feeling of wanting something, communicating it, and getting something else which is at least close to what I want.

Perhaps I'm just more focused on the outcome of how close is the item I get to what I want.

I think where the divide occurs for me, at least, is that I don't feel that the players should really want a magic item to that degree. Magic items should be icing on the cake. Getting something that's a little weird and out in left field should challenge the party to desire to find a use for it, rather than to chuck it into the first merchant caravan they find to save up for the good stuff.

If my party finds a magical axe, and nobody in the party is really optimized to use a magical axe, the party should still really want to use that axe, rather than selling the axe and waiting for the magical spear that one character is truly optimized to wield.

The want for a specific item shouldn't be there so strongly that something completely different is better sold than used. Magic items, when awarded, should scream "USE ME!", even if it's not entirely an ideal use. Heck, they might provoke retraining for their use. That spear guy might become an axe guy just because he found this magic axe.

That's what I'd like from a magic item system. I think that's part of what dividing magic items into common, uncommon, and rare will do for me -- the rare items might make a character sit up and pay attention and want to use it even if it's leather armor for our chain-wearers, or an axe for our spear-weidlers, or a decanter of endless water for anyone. Selling it isn't the first instinct.

 

[Scribble]

These are fine until you run into the player who assumes and demands that both your 2 and 3 highlighted clauses above be in fact true, as that's the way they expect the game to be run...and sadly, such players are out there.

Lan-"my wish list is for wishes"-efan

Isn't this a problem with the player in question though, as opposed to a problem with the tool?

 

[the Jester]

I absolutely do not use wish lists.

If the pcs want a specific item, they can go on a quest.

 

[Lanefan]

Isn't this a problem with the player in question though, as opposed to a problem with the tool?

Yes, but I'd still rather not feed it with wish lists.

Lan-"have wish lists come up in that eat-what-you-kill thread yet?"-efan

 

[Corathon]

I absolutely do not use wish lists.

If the pcs want a specific item, they can go on a quest.

That's my feeling, too. It should be possible for a PC to get their hands on any reasonable item, but they have to make it happen; I as, the DM won't just drop the item that they want into the next treasure hoarde. Hit the books, consult sages, then go on an adventure to get your magical goodies.