Hella_Tellah
Explorer
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Magic Item Wishlist: Yea or Nay?
- Thread starter JoeGKushner
- Start date
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I don't like the wishlist approach. It's halfway between two styles of gaming I'd accept and fits neither.
One approach I like is the full-simulationist route. No wishlist. No "what I think may be useful for PCs in next adventure". No random loot. Use whatever loot fits the place where it is found: either something that was useful for the monster or something it had a good reason to guard. Never give loot that the enemy could have used, but didn't, if this fact does not have very good explanation.
The other approach is going full meta. Loot does not depend on any GM decision. It's the players who declare what their characters found, limited by the level guidelines. In such approach it is player's responsibility to explain why the item they found was there. Doing it this way fits well, IMO, with player-declared opportunities (most sensible explanation for daily and encounter powers), completely abstract HPs and other similar aspects of 4e.
One approach I like is the full-simulationist route. No wishlist. No "what I think may be useful for PCs in next adventure". No random loot. Use whatever loot fits the place where it is found: either something that was useful for the monster or something it had a good reason to guard. Never give loot that the enemy could have used, but didn't, if this fact does not have very good explanation.
The other approach is going full meta. Loot does not depend on any GM decision. It's the players who declare what their characters found, limited by the level guidelines. In such approach it is player's responsibility to explain why the item they found was there. Doing it this way fits well, IMO, with player-declared opportunities (most sensible explanation for daily and encounter powers), completely abstract HPs and other similar aspects of 4e.
Amphimir Míriel
Explorer
I am currently in an intermediate point
I ask my players for wishlists for the entire tier they are starting, stuff they would like to have at some point during the next three or four adventures,
However, the players are advised that this is not a guarantee that they will get those items.
Then, when I am preparing adventures, I take an item or two from each players wishlist and add it to the treasure parcels for the adventure. I am more likely to pick flavorful items that match the theme of the adventure. I also add items that, while not in any player's wishlist, I feel they match their regular theme.
It is more work than just giving the players what they want, but I manage to keep some mystery and sense of exploration.
I ask my players for wishlists for the entire tier they are starting, stuff they would like to have at some point during the next three or four adventures,
However, the players are advised that this is not a guarantee that they will get those items.
Then, when I am preparing adventures, I take an item or two from each players wishlist and add it to the treasure parcels for the adventure. I am more likely to pick flavorful items that match the theme of the adventure. I also add items that, while not in any player's wishlist, I feel they match their regular theme.
It is more work than just giving the players what they want, but I manage to keep some mystery and sense of exploration.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
I am not a fan of the wishlist.
It comes down to my conception of what a magic item should be.
That is, I feel like it should be a reward, something given to you because of success. Like most rewards, you don't get to choose it. It drops into your hands completely independent of what you desire. It's not a goal to pursue.
A wishlist contradicts that view. With a wishlist, it is something you are owed, something you expect to get, a standard piece of equipment.
Since 3e, magic items have been more in the latter camp than the former. This is important for balance reasons, but it takes away an element of the reward. 3e tried to preserve the reward element by enabling randomized treasure generation, but 4e abandons it completely in favor of a decision point, forcing the GM or the player to make a choice about which thing they want. Which works much better from a balance standpoint, but has basically no element of reward left.
I'm excited to see 4e post-essentials going back to find a reward model, with "common," "uncommon," and "rare" categories for items. Common items can be listed, chosen, and expected, but the others are pure reward. I'm also stoked about getting to roll for treasure again.
It comes down to my conception of what a magic item should be.
That is, I feel like it should be a reward, something given to you because of success. Like most rewards, you don't get to choose it. It drops into your hands completely independent of what you desire. It's not a goal to pursue.
A wishlist contradicts that view. With a wishlist, it is something you are owed, something you expect to get, a standard piece of equipment.
Since 3e, magic items have been more in the latter camp than the former. This is important for balance reasons, but it takes away an element of the reward. 3e tried to preserve the reward element by enabling randomized treasure generation, but 4e abandons it completely in favor of a decision point, forcing the GM or the player to make a choice about which thing they want. Which works much better from a balance standpoint, but has basically no element of reward left.
I'm excited to see 4e post-essentials going back to find a reward model, with "common," "uncommon," and "rare" categories for items. Common items can be listed, chosen, and expected, but the others are pure reward. I'm also stoked about getting to roll for treasure again.
TarionzCousin
Second Most Angelic Devil Ever
Your characters are missing out on some awesome stuff!Hella_Tellah said:
FireLance
Legend
I get that not everyone likes the idea of wish lists, but it sometimes seems to me that some posters are working off a negative caricature of what wish lists are supposed to be. For example:
1. A wish list means that the character knows about the magic item and is actively searching for it. As S'mon said earlier, wish lists are a purely metagame concept. The player tells the DM what magic items he would like his character to find. The character adventures normally, and (if the DM so decides) the magic item shows up as part of the treasure won from an enemy, or as a reward given by a patron or an allied NPC. He does not go shopping. Alternatively, the DM might require the character to undertake a special adventure to locate the magic item or to obtain the components required to create it, but this is not an essential aspect of wish lists.
2. The character will get every magic item on his player's wish list. While a DM might choose to do so (and he would probably make the player very happy if he does), he is also completely within his rights to include only some, or even none, of the items on his players' wish lists in his adventures. Wish lists simply provide the DM with information about what his players want. They do not negate the DM's authority over his game.
3. The DM cannot give magic items that are not on his players' wish lists. This is, in a way, the mirror image of the previous point. Wish lists do not prevent a DM from giving out quirky and interesting magic items, or surprising his players with magic items that are not on their wish lists.
At the end of the day, wish lists are a tool for the DM to find out at least one aspect of what the players want out of his game. You may know your players and their characters well enough that you do not need to use them. You may have other, possibly better, ways to accomplish what they do. Like all tools, they can be misused, often to the detriment of the game. However, when used properly, they can make it easier for a DM to manage at least one of his responsibilities.
1. A wish list means that the character knows about the magic item and is actively searching for it. As S'mon said earlier, wish lists are a purely metagame concept. The player tells the DM what magic items he would like his character to find. The character adventures normally, and (if the DM so decides) the magic item shows up as part of the treasure won from an enemy, or as a reward given by a patron or an allied NPC. He does not go shopping. Alternatively, the DM might require the character to undertake a special adventure to locate the magic item or to obtain the components required to create it, but this is not an essential aspect of wish lists.
2. The character will get every magic item on his player's wish list. While a DM might choose to do so (and he would probably make the player very happy if he does), he is also completely within his rights to include only some, or even none, of the items on his players' wish lists in his adventures. Wish lists simply provide the DM with information about what his players want. They do not negate the DM's authority over his game.
3. The DM cannot give magic items that are not on his players' wish lists. This is, in a way, the mirror image of the previous point. Wish lists do not prevent a DM from giving out quirky and interesting magic items, or surprising his players with magic items that are not on their wish lists.
At the end of the day, wish lists are a tool for the DM to find out at least one aspect of what the players want out of his game. You may know your players and their characters well enough that you do not need to use them. You may have other, possibly better, ways to accomplish what they do. Like all tools, they can be misused, often to the detriment of the game. However, when used properly, they can make it easier for a DM to manage at least one of his responsibilities.
cignus_pfaccari
First Post
Exactly. I think there's often a disconnect between what a DM thinks is cool and what a player thinks is cool, and then the DM is shocked when the players disenchant or sell the item he thought was perfectly awesome and flavorful.
The best example was a ring that showed up in our Birthright game, that gave the electrical sense of a shocker lizard. It was really neat, but in a game where the majority of electrical discharges were pretty damn obvious, it wasn't terribly useful. At no point afterwards would it have come in handy, so we wound up selling it once we could get to a place that would buy magic items.
We don't use specific wish lists, per se, but we don't oppose them, either. Often we don't have any specific item requests, but will take whatever drops (though now the group meme that Dawn Warrior Armor is The Best Armor Evar has taken hold...). The DMs have a general idea what we'd look for, and make sure to, say, drop Staves of Ruin and Bracers of whatnot. Hell, the DM has dropped items in that he thought useful for certain characters, like our warden.
Brad
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
To me, that's not a wish list; it's at worst an adventure hook.
These are fine until you run into the player who assumes and demands that both your 2 and 3 highlighted clauses above be in fact true, as that's the way they expect the game to be run...and sadly, such players are out there.
Lan-"my wish list is for wishes"-efan
FireLance
Legend
Yes, wish lists can be made into adventure hooks. The player gives the DM a wish list, and in-game, the character hears a rumor about a magic item on the wish list with specific abilities in a particular location. However, the point was more to counter the implication that the player handing the DM a wish list means that the character is aware that the magic item exists and is actively searching for it.
Agreed, this is one of the problems that can be encountered with wish lists. However, I expect that they would work fine with most players who are mature and socially well-adjusted, and who do not have entitlement complexes.
I'm highly confused by the use of words here.
A wishlist is something my players give me for what their character might want. I ask for 4-5 things, 2-3 levels out.
This drives the story, for me.
Someone earlier said that if a character says they are out looking for something, and they quest for it, they might get it.
How is that different than a wish list?
Your player said they wanted it, you found a way to get it into the story to get it in their hands.
I'm confused that people would draw a super fine distinction here.
A wishlist is something my players give me for what their character might want. I ask for 4-5 things, 2-3 levels out.
This drives the story, for me.
Someone earlier said that if a character says they are out looking for something, and they quest for it, they might get it.
How is that different than a wish list?
Your player said they wanted it, you found a way to get it into the story to get it in their hands.
I'm confused that people would draw a super fine distinction here.
