Letting Players Narrate in the Game?

[Barastrondo]

I think in a group of mature, reasonable people who have a good grasp of story, conflict, characterisation and most importantly resolution, this sort of narrative gaming style could work really well.

Or setting.

The problem is finding those people.

Once again I count my blessings.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I think in a group of mature, reasonable people who have a good grasp of story, conflict, characterisation and most importantly resolution, this sort of narrative gaming style could work really well.

Even then it's been difficult.

I consider my players to be all of the above, but they still ask me things like, "Is there a manhole cover nearby that I can grab and chuck at the guy?" (I run M&M.) I've been very explicit that not only can they take the lead in narration, but that I think it will make the game more enjoyable for everyone. But they can't seem to break the stranglehold idea that "the GM is the only gateway to the world."

I think it is improving somewhat. One of the players has gotten really good at framing in-combat and out-of-combat actions in terms of comic book panels, which is great. I think if he can just make the leap from that to helping fill in the details of the world, the light bulb will go on for the other players.

 

[Insight]

Great idea for a thread!

I haven't really ever tried this, though I have read that section in DMG2 (side note: a great gaming resource for any game). I've never had a DM allow me this sort of freedom and I'm not certain what I would do with said freedom, but I would like to try it out.

I'm starting a new game this weekend and I may try springing this on my players as an experiment. I'll probably severely limit what the narrative can do and how far I'll let them go with it. These are 1st level characters and I have a fairly good idea what I want to do with the adventure. Still, I like the idea of giving the players some narrative freedom within that framework.

 

[Insight]

I've been very explicit that not only can they take the lead in narration, but that I think it will make the game more enjoyable for everyone. But they can't seem to break the stranglehold idea that "the GM is the only gateway to the world."

I suspect that this is going to be the hang-up in most groups. We are so accustomed and conditioned to receive information and direction from the GM that being asked to break that particular paradigm seems alien.

 

[frankthedm]

Great way to find out the tastes and preferences of the players. Just don't be too surprised if the GM's gripping drama transitions to Loony Toons inspired dripping trauma .

 

[wolff96]

I suspect that this is going to be the hang-up in most groups. We are so accustomed and conditioned to receive information and direction from the GM that being asked to break that particular paradigm seems alien.

That's why I ended up going to non-D&D games full time. Let me start by saying that I'm not trying to cause an edition war here, or say that only Indy games have value.

I've found that D&D -- any edition -- comes with a certain expectation from players that have gamed before. They expect the DM to be the only gateway to the world. They expect to run around, find plot hooks, and follow them to adventure. They expect games to have underlying structure, even in a sandbox-style environment.

To break that mindset in my players, I had to introduce new books. By breaking that level of familiar comfort, I was able to shake up the mindset of passivity. First Warhammer and now FATE, specifically Spirit of the Century and the Dresden Files, have really encouraged the players to get involved, to define big portions of the world, and to find what is important to THEIR character.

It's not some universal law, but I was able to get a *huge* amount of player buy-in, simply by disrupting the players' comfort zone with a new system.

 

[LostSoul]

It depends on the game that I'm playing. In my current 4E game it would be very, very bad for the game. When I played Houses of the Blooded it was what the game was about!

Here is a blog post that sums up my thoughts on the matter: The pitfalls of narrative technique in rpg play « Game Design is about Structure

A sample:

The problem we have here, specifically, is that when you apply narration sharing to backstory authority, you require the player to both establish and resolve a conflict, which runs counter to the Czege principle. You also require the player to take on additional responsibilities in addition to his tasks in character advocacy; this is a crucial change to the nature of the game, as it shapes a core activity into a completely new form. Now, instead of only having to worry about expressing his character and making decisions for him, the player is thrust into a position of authorship: he has to make decisions that are not predicated on the best interests of his character, but on the best interests of the story itself.​

 

[Mallus]

Now, instead of only having to worry about expressing his character and making decisions for him, the player is thrust into a position of authorship: he has to make decisions that are not predicated on the best interests of his character, but on the best interests of the story itself.[/indent]

Typically, is that all a player has to worry about, making decisions and expressing their individual characters? My experience is it's common to make character decisions for reasons external to the in-game fiction, ie real-world social reasons, to make another player happy.

Or a player might decide on a deliberate course of reckless action, because it seems like fun, but play their character as unaware of the this, or even reluctant to adventure. Frankly, if I gave any though to my PC's best interests, they'd all retire .

My take is authorship is unavoidable, regardless of the level of narrative authority a player is given.

 

[Afrodyte]

This is pretty much the only way I can play and enjoy it. For me, a character is not just what's on the sheet or the die roll or the things they say and do in the game. A character is a part of a world, a part of the story, given life.

It's hard for me to enjoy myself in a game that doesn't make room for that - even when I'm the GM!

 

[JoeGKushner]

This is something that I think Wizards of the Coast should seize with both hands. With the problems of having a non-ending horde of crunch for the DDI every month, instead of coming up with ideas still in playtest and passing them off as articles, come out with things that push the players to experiement with new play styles.

While the DMG2 does a great job of giving the GM a lot of options in terms of how he presents the game, the PHB2 and PHB3 are essentially just big books of crunch. And while I like crunch as much as the next guy, if that crunch as no context, it's essentially crunch masterbation.

There needs to be more articles not about 'saying yes' to players in terms of letting they play every piece of crunch, which is in and of itself another subject, but more articles about different play styles and how those play styles may work with D&D.

Hamelt's Hit Points has like a sentence on this saying something like, "Yeah, players may not know how to do it." and I'm thinking, and your answer to that is? But there wasn't one.

If all the books are aimed at the limited crowd of the GM in terms of bringing different play styles home, and a game like D&D is aimed at six people, what are the odds everyone's going to be anywhere near the same page?

Even then it's been difficult.

I consider my players to be all of the above, but they still ask me things like, "Is there a manhole cover nearby that I can grab and chuck at the guy?" (I run M&M.) I've been very explicit that not only can they take the lead in narration, but that I think it will make the game more enjoyable for everyone. But they can't seem to break the stranglehold idea that "the GM is the only gateway to the world."

I think it is improving somewhat. One of the players has gotten really good at framing in-combat and out-of-combat actions in terms of comic book panels, which is great. I think if he can just make the leap from that to helping fill in the details of the world, the light bulb will go on for the other players.