Can a swarm be grabbed?

[Tony Vargas]

The name of the power is irrelevant. It does nothing for me to determine the effect of the power mechanically, or fictionally.

Really? Hm. I find that the names are usually fairly evocative of what they do, and that they become quite familiar in the course of a campaign. I guess if you run a lot one-offs with different characters each time, the latter wouldn't be the case. But, really, the names of the powers are the system (almost unique) identifiers - I know there's a /lot/ of 'em, but having at least a vague idea of what the powers of the PCs you're running for at the moment are shouldn't be too tough.

 

[nookiemonster]

Having actually played a brawling fighter that encountered a swarm (the Mul in Dark Sun Encounters), I feel that this is all a storm in a teacup. Sure, the Mul could have grabbed the damn swarm, but it had a damaging aura, which made that a pretty stupid idea. It doesn't make sense that a humanoid could grab a swarm of rats or bugs. It also doesn't make any tactical sense for the humanoid to do that, in many cases, so it balances out.

I mean, if you want to argue about common sense, it's possible for a small-sized creature (say, a halfling fighter) to grab a gargantuan creature and move it around. You could argue, "Well, it's all about which part you grab!", but even so, it makes little sense.

 

[CovertOps]

Having actually played a brawling fighter that encountered a swarm (the Mul in Dark Sun Encounters), I feel that this is all a storm in a teacup. Sure, the Mul could have grabbed the damn swarm, but it had a damaging aura, which made that a pretty stupid idea. It doesn't make sense that a humanoid could grab a swarm of rats or bugs. It also doesn't make any tactical sense for the humanoid to do that, in many cases, so it balances out.

I mean, if you want to argue about common sense, it's possible for a small-sized creature (say, a halfling fighter) to grab a gargantuan creature and move it around. You could argue, "Well, it's all about which part you grab!", but even so, it makes little sense.

I think someone a couple pages back had a CS response or FAQ or something that said that powers that allow you to "grab" still have to follow the normal rules for grab (ie no more than 2 sizes larger) so a Halfling could grab something of size Large or smaller and that's it.

 

[P1NBACK]

I think someone a couple pages back had a CS response or FAQ or something that said that powers that allow you to "grab" still have to follow the normal rules for grab (ie no more than 2 sizes larger) so a Halfling could grab something of size Large or smaller and that's it.

I emailed WotC CS because Aegeri vehemently claimed that those of us who followed the normal rules for the Grab attack on powers that allowed you to "grab the target" were, in his words, "confused" on the way it worked.

It turns out, he was confused.

Grab states, "You can attempt to grab a creature that is smaller than you, the same size category as you, or one category larger than you."

A halfling is small. So, by RAW, they can only grab a medium creature at the largest. They cannot grab a large or huge or gargantuan creature (unless, imo, the fiction dictated it).

 

[Jhaelen]

Really? Hm. I find that the names are usually fairly evocative of what they do, and that they become quite familiar in the course of a campaign. I guess if you run a lot one-offs with different characters each time, the latter wouldn't be the case. But, really, the names of the powers are the system (almost unique) identifiers - I know there's a /lot/ of 'em, but having at least a vague idea of what the powers of the PCs you're running for at the moment are shouldn't be too tough.

I'm with P1NBACK, here. I really cannot be bothered to memorize the bazillion names of powers my players are using. Note that I've been pretty lax about retraining when we started playing. If they didn't like a power, I allowed them to switch any number of them after an extended rest.

I also actually approve if they describe their actions in their own words followed by the mechanical effects. It adds a tiny bit of roleplaying to what would otherwise be just an exercise in rolling dice. Reskinning powers and making them your own is fun!

 

[CovertOps]

It's damn impossible to quote someone from an XP comment. But yes P1NBACK I am also very lax about that.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

GM: There is a giant pile of snakes in the town. They are threatening the locals. Your character has been given the quest to get rid of the snakes from the town for 15gp.

Player (Playing St. Patrick the Human Bard): How many snakes?

GM: I dunno...hundreds. Lets just say these 9 squares are a huge hoard of snakes...a swarm.

Player: So, there is a Huge snake swarm, right?

GM: Sure

Player: OK...I want to grab the snakes.

GM: What??? That's ridiculous!!! You can't grab a swarm.

Player: Well, I am not actually grabbing the snakes with my hands...I am playing a ditty on my flute and the snakes are sorta hypnotized. This makes them immobilized, right?

GM: OK, I guess, sure. Roll.

Player: Cool, I got a 20, so I think I have the swarm immobilized...now I want to lead it off a cliff.

GM: OK, now thats just sorta cheating...I let you "grab" them but now you want to actually pick up and move the snakes?

Player: Not pick them up, no. I just want to make Grab checks each round and move the snakes slowly towards the cliff edge. I figure i'm slowly retreating towards the cliff edge and the snakes are following me hypnotized.

GM: Sweet...Awesome job St. Patrick. The 15gp and sainthood are yours!

DS

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm with P1NBACK, here. I really cannot be bothered to memorize the bazillion names of powers my players are using.

A 1st level character has 2 at-wills, an encounter and a daily. That's 4 powers. Times 5 players is 20. They use those 20 powers for 13 encounters before they each add a utility. I'd think that in 13 encounters - about a month of weekly play - you couldn't help but become familiar with those 20 powers, or, at least, the ones that get the most use. Certainly, I found myself becoming quite familiar with most of my fellow players' powers in a campaign running from 1st-11th, and that was with 6 characters besides my Warlord.

Of course, if you're running a different set of characters every week, or starting at higher level, or playing two or three campaigns concurrently, I could certainly see a lot of potential for confusion and power-overload...

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Certainly, I found myself becoming quite familiar with most of my fellow players' powers in a campaign running from 1st-11th, and that was with 6 characters besides my Warlord.

Do remember that in addition to those 20 powers you mention...the players probably all have one item power and one racial power each.

And, also, during that experience level you probably fought 12-20 different monsters that all had multiple powers as well.

As a GM...you really DON'T get too familiar with all the players powers. You are too busy trying to keep your monsters powers straight during each battle.

DS

 

[P1NBACK]

Of course, if you're running a different set of characters every week, or starting at higher level, or playing two or three campaigns concurrently, I could certainly see a lot of potential for confusion and power-overload...

For a several months, I was running a West Marches style 4E game with up to 11 different players at a time, some of which had multiple characters.