D&D 3E/3.5 (3.5) Problem player and campaign issues

[mucco]

Hello ENWorld, I'm new to posting on these boards.

I wanted your advice on this campaign I'm running. I'm a first time DM, and my group is full of skilled optimizers. The group is currently composed of a Necropolitan Dread Necromancer, a Dragonfire Adept, a Psion specializing in high-save dominations and all-out nova, and an Assassin using wraithstrike with dual daggers for awesome damage. The campaign started at level 1, and after more than one year the overall level is 13. The party is evil.

With the power level rising, I have a very hard time making difficult, or even mildly challenging, encounters for my players. I am faced with one of two options for encounters: NPCs, or monsters. NPCs have the problem of not having many hit points - within the second round of combat the party is able to dish out 60-70d6 without many problems. If I am to use monsters, they will crumble in about one or two more rounds giving me the chance to actually do something, but the corpses will then be reanimated by the Dread for even greater benefits.

Last game session they vanquished a cave with a CR 14 white dragon (and they were one level lower) without a single scratch. The poor dragon could do nothing against the wave of undead and the extreme blasting by the psion. The party protects itself by means of extensive Share Pain castings so that most of the damage goes on the undead which can then be easily healed (and now with that 24 HD zombie dragon featuring almost 400 hp, things will be even worse). The only time I was able to do some serious damage was a bit ago, when a red dragon a CR 3 above the party level (a red dragon you know, those are under-CRed) pounced the Dread Necro with full power attack, repeated on the first round plus a quickened breath just to barely send him at -3, enough to kill him but I needed high rolls. I ran that dragon as a test drive for the toughness of my party and it was hell tough.

Plus, the Dragonfire Adept is constantly spamming slow breaths, entangling breaths, solid fogs and the occasional Intimidate as a move action at +33. It's really hard to get an opponent to do anything in these conditions, and I don't want to send CR 19 monsters to my party (I calculated a Balor would need to play hard to win at their current level anyway...).

What am I supposed to do to keep the game challenging but not deadly?

Plus, the player of the Dread (the character around which most of the campaign has focused) is constantly complaining overtly every time I deny him something "cool" or new he just found out in the most remote splatbook, or every time I don't let him do stuff he thinks he could do. One of the worst arguments was him trying to talk me through about the Animate Dead spell binding the dead soul to the undead body, thereby preventing resurrection of any kind (as it seems to be implied by the Resurrection and true Resurrection spell descriptions). And I didn't want to give him a no-save Soul Bind at third level, especially since he's the kind of guy who would go to extreme lengths to keep the soul protected and save for his own needs.

Lately he's been criticizing almost everything I said because he felt it was too limiting. Now, when we started playing the first DM was a guy without much clue about optimizing, so that DM kept denying almost anything out of core. I don't want to be like that, and I don't want to be unfair to my Dread player but he's always pushed as far as I allowed him. He's become a Necropolitan, picked up a Slaymate as soon as I let him, pushed hard before campaign start to get access to the bloodtouched rite (-2 Con, +2 Cha essentially) so he could put all his points into Con, then burn it all away before becoming undead. He bugged me for weeks because he wanted a talking armor with blindsight and telepathy, and now is ordering all his undead to listen to the armor so he doesn't have to spend actions to direct them in battle. He's entered the walker in the waste PrC, despite me having slightly nerfed it (still a great class).

This kind of behavior is starting to get on my nerves; he's used to play on forums with a group of his that lets him play the most cheesy tricks so he always ends up being more powerful than the DM in any campaign he participates in, on those forums. I fear he wants to do that to my campaign as well, but how to keep my game from exploding? I don't want to be constantly challenging my players with monsters or opponents that exploit their weaknesses, and I don't want to limit them too much, but at the same time I don't want them to have such an easy time as they're having now.

Suggestions?

(Wow, what a wall of text... sorry about that lol)

 

[Dandu]

Just to check, but you know the Psion can't put more PP into a spell than his manifester level, unless he takes certain feats, right?

As for challenging them, perhaps you could link us to their character sheets? It'd be easier to get a handle on their weaknesses.

Offhand, though, I'd suggest you throw out some casters with Fireball and the Violate Spell feat. Hilarity will soon ensue as they try to heal the damage...

To deal with an argumentative player, tell him to respect your authority as a DM or else there's no point in having him around.

 

[Theroc]

Throw a frenzied Berserker with a necklace of Anti-Magic Field or whatever. No breaths, No psionics(unless you are allowing the Psionics to bypass such fields, which is a different problem all together), and if Wraithstrike is a spell, no wraithstrike. The Frenzied berserker is a PRC that makes a Barbarian look like a civilized businessman... and they'll keep fighting even once their dead until the Frenzy runs out.

Alternately, have them fight another necromancer who rebukes his undead and wrests control away. Or, send a battalion of Paladins and Clerics to 'Turn' the army.

It sounds to me like the undead are primarily a meatshield, and forcing them away would make the party more susceptible to attack.

I'm not an experienced DM(About to start my OWN first game), but these are some ideas.

 

[Magesmiley]

One weakness of PCs in general that can be exploited is that a decent-sized group of NPCs or monsters simply has more actions to work with. A mixed group with abilities that complement one another will work the best, I think. Have some of them focus on making their allies more effective or neutralizing the effectiveness of the PCs.

One thought that comes to mind is an often underused rule - counterspelling. If you've got a group of NPCs, a very effective tactic on occasion is to have a caster or three hold their actions to be ready with counterspells. Trading a lower-level NPC's actions to squelch a player's spell is very effective.

The undead hordes... having played a necromancer type in the past as a player, there are weaknesses. Make sure that the player is strictly adhering to the rules when it comes to the actions necessary to command his undead forces. This actually can put a major crimp in the character's effectiveness. Another dirty tactic to dealing with the undead is to put an evil aligned cleric who can try to take control of the critter from the necromancer. In a pinch a good cleric with the sun domain (for the greater turning) is another good option. And one other real big liability is if the necromancer dies - suddenly there is a very large, uncontrolled undead creature in the middle of things. And of course, a heal spell is quite debilitating to most big undead.

Another idea: monsters that use magic items (preferably one-shots) to plug some of their weaknesses, such as a troll that uses potions to get acid and fire resistance. A red dragon which has a spell protecting it from cold, etc.

Along a similar line - how about using illusions or other spells to mislead the players as to what they are facing.

Areas littered with prepared defenses (i.e. traps) is another notion. A bunch of low-level traps in the middle of an encounter area that the enemies know to avoid or lure the players into can be real trouble.

Grappling? Most caster types are in a world of hurt if they end up in a grapple.

I think that with your description of the characters, some of the golems might make a good challenge, especially if they were backed up by a controller in hiding.

What about having a thieves' guild target them the next time they are in civilization?

Have they done anything that an order of NPCs would take exception about? Being evil and having undead in their midst, an order of clerics and paladins sworn to destroy them doesn't seem out of order.

And one last thought... the necropolitan is undead, right? (I can't remember and don't have my books handy,) Why not just have an evil cleric control him and have him take out the rest of the party...

 

[mucco]

Sorry but I don't have character sheets available online. My campaign is hosted on Obsidian Portal but it's all in my native language (italian) so it's unlikely anyone would understand much.

About the Psion, he regularly overchannels to ML 15 for 15d6+15, uses schism to shoot another 13d6+13 thanks to Practiced Spellcaster (-6 becomes -2), and then quickens another blast at 9d6+9 - more than 160 damage on average. Every time he takes some nonlethal damage and/or spends one focus to avoid it (plus the focus from quicken) because he has that other feat as well. Not that he's having many problems with nonlethal damage since he usually quarters regular damage thanks to Share Pain, and there's elemental resistances on top of that. His main weakness would be dispelling, as it's pretty hard to make him blow concentration checks. Also his hp would be pretty low at around 50.

The Dread, he is undead and such is semi vulnerable to turning. Aside from that he plays very conservatively, places a great effort in correct positioning so that there's always a meat shield on all sides near him. His hit points are in the 70s, but that's hardly a factor with Share Pain.

The Dragonfire Adept is the tankiest of the bunch, with amazing Fort saves and almost 200 hp thanks to a 26 Con. He has horrible will saves but the Dread's familiar, the Ghostly Visage, is giving him immunity to mind-affecting stuff so it's not a great deal really. He is awesome at battlefield control, with slow and entangling breath as well as solid fog at will.

The Assassin, aside from Wraithstrike and Improved Invisibility, is not a real big problem. It's played by the least involved person in our group, so I also try to have it a bit easier on him.

Whenever they feel they're in trouble they teleport away and return the next day. I have little means to stop that, of course. I did it when I could but it's no fun if everything is always under time restraints. Also, I can usually have a round attacking them, but then either someone's dead or the party will cruise through VERY easily, starting with a couple dispels and a solid fog for example, or by diverting the enemy's attention. I hate that combats are over by start of round 2.

Your suggestions are nice, though. The thingy of antimagic looks nice (and no psionics won't work in AMF) - but how is the guy meant to reach them if they're flying in the first place? (they're always flying of course) I can give him some mundane way to fly maybe.

 

[Nimloth]

Welcome to high level DnD. I would say you have 2 separate problems, a player issue and a level issue.

The level issue is one almost everyone faces; at higher levels DnD gets wonky. I had a campaign last from 1st to 17th, and after about 12th I had a hard time challenging the characters. So many options, so many spells. I am going to offer 2 bits of advice;
1- if the players use it, use it against them. (IE: a dragon full attacking using wraithstrike and power attack is sure to ruin anyones day.)
2- by this level they should be well know, use it against them. Foes will know what they do and how they do it and be prepared. Particularly all the enemies they have made over their 13 levels.

 

[Theroc]

Your suggestions are nice, though. The thingy of antimagic looks nice (and no psionics won't work in AMF) - but how is the guy meant to reach them if they're flying in the first place? (they're always flying of course) I can give him some mundane way to fly maybe.

Half-Dragon Template(Red or Black), and make him a troll. Now they have to use either acid or fire to permanently hurt the dragon... and he can fly into their area, cause them to fall, and then dive to follow them until right before they hit the ground.

 

[Sorry_Charry]

1- if the players use it, use it against them...
2- by this level they should be well know, use it against them...

Yes and yes.

Normally I'd say to imperil something/someone that they care about. Something that is not as 'combat optimized' as they are. Classic comic book scenario... (can't get the villain and save the girl, that kind of thing). But you've already mentioned that they are an evil group. Damsels in distress might not be their thing. Still though, there must be something that they care about. Attack them there. Their own wealth and status, maybe?

To that I would add; Challenge them elsewhere. It sounds as if they have mastered the battlefield, and can easily walk over any tactical encounter. So give them a problem that's not tactical. Something that they cannot solve with brute force.

They are just a small group, after all. Do they have a tower/lair/castle of some sort yet? Minions/henchmen to look after their interests while they are out slaying dragons?

Depending on how you've set the campaign politics up... hit them in the purse strings. Have a local lord start annexing land/property in the name of 'back taxes' or some other equally bureaucratic explanation.

They'll get pissed and investigate (probably instigate a ruckus as well), this will cause things to spiral out of control. And as it turns out, the lord doing all the aggravating is simply the puppet of the next 'fill in the blank' appropriate uber-villain.

At this level, they've probably caught the attention of even Powers they ought not mess with (I'm talking extraplanar/demons/devils, heck... minor gods, whatever). And now the Powers are sending a message: Toe the line, or have your world turned upside down.

Not ones to be browbeaten, they'll answer the call. over the course of the next few sessions, they'll get to travel to the Nine Hells (or wherever the next baddie calls home), they'll bring the pain in stunning fashion, maybe even take down a duke of hell/demon lord/demigod... you get the picture.

That ought to be a stellar finale to the campaign, tell the players that the characters will be retired after that arc, and can begin another campaign just as soon as you throw one together.

Something like that.

 

[Deset Gled]

Double post.

 

[Deset Gled]

Don't throw big monsters at the party. Give them groups of enemies. When the party can't focus all of their attacks on one spot, the overall effect will be weakened. You should also play off the fact that the hole party has low HP, no meat shield (except undead) and no easy way to heal themselves. Introduce enemies that peck them to death or fights where there are too many enemies to kill them all at once. This party is fragile enough that any enemy that doesn't die in the first round should be a major concern. An enemy that attacks then flees, regroups, stalks and attacks again should be able to whittle them down quickly.

Have you tried simply forcing the party to have multiple encounters a day? If the psion is truly "going nova", he won't last for more than one or two encounters. Likewise, an Assassin will run out of Wraithstrikes really fast if he uses them every round.

I can't imagine the Dragonfire adept and Dread Necromancer play well together. With even a tiny bit of planning from the enemies, the area attack of the adept's breath weapon will start to hurt the undead.

The supply of undead for the Dread should not be infinite. Many bodies will be too damaged to work (depending on how they die). Also, a suffient level Cleric with Turning or just a few minions with Chill Touch will thin the ranks a lot. Undead swarms are also prime targets for area attacks. Most flying enemies can avoid undead altogether. Combine these problems with the multiple encounter suggestion above, and the party will stop treating their pets so brazenly.

Share Pain shouldn't be that big of a deal. First, note that stacking rules prevent more than one manifesting of Share Pain on a single person. Second, with multiple encounters a day your psion will have to strongly consider if Share Pain for all party members is really worth it. Throw in a few dispells, and this power should be a non-issue.

Hope this helps. Have fun.