D&D 3E/3.5 (3.5) Problem player and campaign issues

[Oryan77]

I'd say these guys are powergamers, not optimizers. I see an optimizer as someone that makes good use of the options available, without actually trying to make themselves invincible killing machines that whine when they don't get to use whatever options they ask for.

It sucks to say this, but unless they stop powergaming, you're campaign is doomed to fail. There really is no "fixing" your problem if the powergaming annoys you. Sure, you can do some things to get a moment of relief, but this problem will always nag at you unless they make new PCs that are not powergamed.

All these suggestions people give you about making NPCs challenging may work, but then what? You're going to make every encounter exactly the same just to play off the PCs weaknesses? Or are you going to put in a ton of extra work just coming up with new creative ways to challenge them? That's why I don't like playing with powergamers, they force the DM to do more unnecessary work. And then if you get to a point where you can give them appropriate challenges, the powergamers take that as a reason for why they need to powergame even more, "I lost some hitpoints even though we won, I'm not powerful enough!"

It also is not helping that your powergamers are also argumentative. Basically you have "problem players" and not even powergamers. Some powergamers can still keep it toned down enough when you point out that they are making it hard on you as DM. But a problem player only cares about getting their way and will be disruptive when they don't get their way.

My advice is to politely explain to these players that their current PCs are making it difficult for you to challenge. Explain that part of the fun of D&D is the chance to beat up on an enemy, which means that as a DM, you want the chance to beat up on the enemy also!

I would offer the following options to them:

1. Ask them to rework their PCs using a limited set of rules, and not to mix and match rules that will benefit each other in a way that they might not have been intended to do (powergaming).

2. Ask them to create new PCs at the same level with the same restrictions as #1.

3. Ask them to create new 1st level PCs with the same restrictions as #1, and follow that rule each time they level.

4. Ask someone else to DM.

5. Ask them to leave the group if they do not wish to comply to your wishes.

Personally, I don't play with powergamers anymore. I've kicked a couple out of the group before in order to keep my sanity. I don't have patience with players that want to cause me grief when all I want to do is run a fun game of D&D (and I want it to be fun for me also). A powergamer can still make a good player in your game if he isn't being a deuschbag about it, a problem player will never be a good player in your game. Get rid of the problem players as soon as possible and you'll never have to post on Enworld about problems like this. I know from experience, the game is so much more fun when you have good players and never need to rant about them on the forums!

 

[mucco]

Thank you all for the replies.

Personally, I like the campaign and the character concepts a lot, so I do not want to force them to change what they made. It's their character and they probably like it that way, too; making them change would mean taking away interest in the game, and it would be a pity (every one of my players takes turns in DMing the others, but my campaign is the one which went furthest).

They do have weaknesses, but they're real good at fixing them. The Dread paid 50k to gain access to teleportation earlier, since the psion wasn't willing to spend a feat on it. They all took Tomb-Tainted Soul so that they could get healed at the end of the battles. The Dragonfire Adept is constantly casting on everyone an invocation that makes the subject immune to his breath weapon, so hitting undead wouldn't be a problem.

Forcing them to have more encounters per day is really hard, since they can teleport away any moment. And with the psion's ability to Dimension Door as a move action coupled with mini time stop (temporal acceleration), they can regroup in less than one round.

I didn't think about Share Pain not stacking. Are you sure on that rule?

I will also try adding more enemies, but I do not want to make them feel pressured.

Man, it's hard to DM once the party gets strong.

 

[Theroc]

Forcing them to have more encounters per day is really hard, since they can teleport away any moment. And with the psion's ability to Dimension Door as a move action coupled with mini time stop (temporal acceleration), they can regroup in less than one round.

Dimensional Anchor/Anti-Magic Field. Heck, have the big baddie have the Salient Divine ability to have an anti-magic field centered on them, charge in and assault one of the party members quickly, locking them into combat unless they can disengage and get far away without magic. And when they try to do so, the Deity calls in his minions. Or... have the anti-magic field fill the room so they have to try and reach a door... and have the god teleport to it. (Deity's spells bypass Anti-Magic Fields)

The players could cry foul, but it doesn't seem like they give you a whole lot of choice. Have pixie Spell thieves and 'Psi theives' steal away Power points and spell slots.

By the way, how did the Dread necromancer get access to Teleport? Last I checked the Necromancer's spell list is restricted to necromancy... which excludes teleport.

I will also try adding more enemies, but I do not want to make them feel pressured.

Man, it's hard to DM once the party gets strong.

Well, they ARE making YOU feel pressured. Have you ever tried discussing the issues with the players before?

 

[Jhaelen]

I'd say these guys are powergamers, not optimizers. I see an optimizer as someone that makes good use of the options available, without actually trying to make themselves invincible killing machines that whine when they don't get to use whatever options they ask for.

Ah, not really. When I hear optimizer, I think of the CO boards. And the CO boards are full of posters who are primarily interested in powergaming.

Anyway, Deset Gled's advice is pretty good. I've found encounters with many opponents to be a lot more challenging than those with single opponents. Especially, if you introduce the enemies in waves.

To the OP what encounter levels have you been using? For this kind of group you should not fear using L+3 or L+4 encounters.

Some of the most deadly encounters I've created for my high-level pcs (nine players, level 13-15, including a psion) so far included the following:
- A nightstalker with retinue (Dread Wraiths and Shadows)
- A teratomorph
- A group of voidmind werebear orc npcs
- A bunch of pseudonatural kuo-toa npcs (though bad player tactics were involved)
- A party of hezrou (due to their blasphemy ability)
- A group of efreet fighters led by an efreet sorcerer (this one was a surprise to me; basically they fell for their ruse involving polymorph and permanent images, then got butchered by the fighters wielding falchions improved by dolorous blow)

For an evil party, a couple of good outsiders should work well, I guess.

What you need to do, is focus on the weaknesses of one or more of your pcs. E.g. in my game the most tricky pc to challenge is the psion. I've found the key is to prevent the psion from using his offensive potential by forcing him to spend actions manifesting utility powers. Often he's kept busy for the first two or three rounds to cast dispel psionics, touchsight, or intellect fortress.

Similarly, focusing attacks on the cleric will keep him from healing his allies effectively.

It also never hurts to force the pcs to fight in unhospitable terrain that favours their enemies.

 

[mucco]

The Dread let himself be Spellstitched and chose Teleport (among other neat stuff like Phantom Steed, Raise Dead, Revive Undead and Wall of Bones, which are all cast without material components). It took him 49k for the ritual plus 36k because he needed a +6 item of Wisdom, and got loans from the other party members. It looked like a fair trade to me, not like the Wis item is benefitting him much anyway. He still lacks a +6 item for Charisma...

Ooh, the spellthief looks sweet. I will surely use it, was looking for something similar for a long time.

 

[Oryan77]

Ah, not really. When I hear optimizer, I think of the CO boards. And the CO boards are full of posters who are primarily interested in powergaming.

Which would make them powergamers. I don't believe there is a forum for Character Powergaming, so just because they post in the CO forum doesn't mean they aren't telling people how to powergame.

My interpretation was only that an optimizer is a powergamer that will make a good build, but will keep it toned down so he won't cause the DM problems with his build. A powergamer is just a problem player that doesn't care about the DM or the other players. He only cares about being godlike and he'll whine if he's told that he can't use certain rules that will make him an invincible killing machine. So my point to the OP was, if you have a problem player and it's bad enough where you can't deal with it, then ask him to change or leave the game. I honestly don't think "dealing" with it will keep a campaign to last very long.

Anyway, people will argue their interpretation of D&D terms all day long. So it doesn't surprise me that out of my entire post, the only thing quoted from me is that you define a word differently. That's not the point of this thread and I understand that people will define terms differently. No need to point it out to me.

 

[green slime]

Forcing them to have more encounters per day is really hard, since they can teleport away any moment. And with the psion's ability to Dimension Door as a move action coupled with mini time stop (temporal acceleration), they can regroup in less than one round.

I didn't think about Share Pain not stacking. Are you sure on that rule?

I will also try adding more enemies, but I do not want to make them feel pressured.

Man, it's hard to DM once the party gets strong.

Not too difficult, you have lots of advice above. Prep battles in advance: read about NPC and monster abilities. Make sure you have understood the player's favourite spells, and do NOT rely on the reading offered by the player alone.

Secondly, you DO want to make them feel pressured. I've handled 3.x combats, and always challenged the characters to the limit. Step right up to the thin line bordering on TPK. Make the players feel like they had to sweat to get their victory.

1) The Stalingrad gambit: have reinforcements continually entering the field of battle. This makes it seem as if the battle is almost winnable, they only need to push a little bit harder, and they will attain their goal.... Only to discover yet more reinforcements arriving...

2) Goose / Gander : good for one, good for the other: foes teleport/word of recall away too. Only to read a scroll of heal, grab a few scrolls, and summon even more reinforcements. Or flee.

3) the battlefield radar: IMC there is a spell that allows a spellcaster to track where a teleportee went, and follow after them. Prevents certainity of escaping. So surprise the players with a vicious strike on their home turf after they try to escape. Makes for an extremely desperate battle, and one they cannot afford to lose.

4) Scramble and delay teleport, and teleport warning spells also exist. So pursuing is not always so healthy, either

5) Dragons can't fit in doors. Even undead ones with 400 hp. And most cities object to undead lurching around their streets. Make life difficult for them.

6) Hostile terrain. In their case, a plane closely connected to the Positive Energy Plane, if not that plane itself.

7) Such powerful Evil anti-heroes are sure to attract hordes of questing heroes, of equal or higher level. Best in the form of recurring NPC's attempting to capture and convert them. 1 NPC party of 20th level trying to capture one or more of them may give them pause for thought.

8) I never, ever let a player badger me about something for weeks. Ask, give me your reasoning (why: storywise, and a proper analysis of game effects), I'll consider it between sessions, and give you my verdict at the next session, including reasoning. Badgering me about something is likely to get me waving my ban-hammer. Tip "Because its cool to carry a bucket of snails!" is the wrong answer...

 

[Dandu]

Since it's an all-evil party, maybe you should use a Good cleric with a Bead of Karma and the Holy Word spell.

 

[Theroc]

Which would make them powergamers. I don't believe there is a forum for Character Powergaming, so just because they post in the CO forum doesn't mean they aren't telling people how to powergame.

My interpretation was only that an optimizer is a powergamer that will make a good build, but will keep it toned down so he won't cause the DM problems with his build. A powergamer is just a problem player that doesn't care about the DM or the other players. He only cares about being godlike and he'll whine if he's told that he can't use certain rules that will make him an invincible killing machine. So my point to the OP was, if you have a problem player and it's bad enough where you can't deal with it, then ask him to change or leave the game. I honestly don't think "dealing" with it will keep a campaign to last very long.

Anyway, people will argue their interpretation of D&D terms all day long. So it doesn't surprise me that out of my entire post, the only thing quoted from me is that you define a word differently. That's not the point of this thread and I understand that people will define terms differently. No need to point it out to me.

I get you said this didn't need to be pointed out, but possibly to prevent future confusions; I have noticed it seems common to refer to what you call a powergamer as a munchkin here on Enworld. Munchkins make things like Pun-Pun and the Omnisicifer. But that's just a simple observation.

Pixie Spellthieves could be potentially devastating to this group unless they've a method to bypass invisibility, since the pixie could constantly sneak attack and steal spells without being detected. That would CERTAINLY keep the party on their toes. Especially if they have low HP. And... if the pixies steal 'teleport' once the party finds them and get ready to attack back, they can teleport away, leaving the party badly injured and forcing them to spend resources on that.

 

[Dandu]

I get you said this didn't need to be pointed out, but possibly to prevent future confusions; I have noticed it seems common to refer to what you call a powergamer as a munchkin here on Enworld. Munchkins make things like Pun-Pun and the Omnisicifer. But that's just a simple observation.

Munchkins use Pun-Pun and the Omnisificer. The people who created the two builds have stated that they are not really intended for actual gameplay.

Pixie Spellthieves could be potentially devastating to this group unless they've a method to bypass invisibility, since the pixie could constantly sneak attack and steal spells without being detected. That would CERTAINLY keep the party on their toes. Especially if they have low HP. And... if the pixies steal 'teleport' once the party finds them and get ready to attack back, they can teleport away, leaving the party badly injured and forcing them to spend resources on that.

I'd just Dimension Anchor the teleporter, personally.