D&D 4E Deciding Between PFTPG and D&D4e/E. Also, Four Simple Questions (D&D 4e repost)

[baconcow]

I recently posted this topic in the Pathfinder (legacy) forum and it was suggested that I repost it here to avoid biased responses. I am leaning more towards getting Pathfinder, but I have still been putting a lot of thought into D&D 4e. I have read nearly every Pathfinder v D&D 4e thread that I have found on various sites and decided to come here and post something new due to the fact that many threads are from 2008 and 2009. Sorry to any of those who already ran into this topic in the Pathfinder forum. Three of my five of the questions have been answered and point towards Pathfinder. Feel free to throw any answers or objections into my thought process.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/pathfinder-rpg-discussion/294552-deciding-between-pftpg-d-d4e-e-also-four-simple-questions.html


I thought I would give my thought process for any of those interested with my decision between Pathfinder and D&D 4e (which included looking up the differences between Pathfinder and D&D 3.5) to fully understand. I have been comparing Pathfinder with D&D 4e. I have never played an RPG, but I have a friend who has years and years of 2nd Edition and 3/3.5th Edition. He completely stands by 3.5, and recommends Pathfinder. However, if I go with D&D 4th Edition, I have a more difficult time choosing which path to go:

1) Non-Essentials

D&D 4e appears to be outdated with the new Essentials (4E) lineup. I don't want to buy errata-filled books which are not even the current rulesets. There are a LOT of D&D 4e books which, while not bad, DOES intimidate me because I cannot read fast and do not have a lot of money (only a lot of Amazon.ca gift cards).

2) Essentials
Now, the problem with this option is that the game has recently gone through several changes with the new Essentials lineup. The players Handbook 1 has 22 pages of Errata. There is a new Essentials rulebook (Rules Compendium). New players handbooks (Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms). I looked at the Rules Compendium today and it looked well done. However, the Heroes of the Fallen Lands book looked so elementary. Characters had some fluff followed by what seemed to be a limited amount of pre-determined builds. Everything seemed to have limited customization. Now, while players don't consider Essentials 4.5, I cannot see how such rule changes to the game and character development is still 4.0e. Now, I get a "n00b" start to what appears to be a rather complicated game. But if I was intimidated by rules, I would just play World of Warcraft or Guild Wars again. I can then buy some of the pre-Essentials items to round it out or rely on the Character Builder which, while interesting (the demo), seems to limit the immersion I want to get out of the books (I enjoy fluff).

3) Pathfinder
Lastly, I can take the Pathfinder route. I've seen the book in-store and it looks incredible (layout, art, and content). The 3.5 game sounds in-depth and highly customizable. The only issue I have about it being highly unbalanced at high levels.

__________________________________________________ _________________

So in the end, it comes down to a factor of money, opinions of others, accessibility, and ease of play. Since I like getting a complete experience from a game, I wouldn't want to leave out any core books, even if I don't pick them up until later after gaining legitimate interest).

IMPORTANT BOOKS (from what I found in my research). I thought including these and their cost (at Amazon Canada) might help others like myself looking for a direct comparison. I included what I would consider a CORE package, including the rules, characters, DM book, monsters, and at least one campaign setting.

1) Pathfinder
- Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Core Rulebook ($33)
- Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Pathfinder Bestiary ($26)
- Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: GameMastery Guide ($26)
- Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Player's Guide ($26)
- Campaign Setting: World Guide—The Inner Sea ($39 unreleased)
TOTAL: $150

2) D&D 4 Essentials
- Rules Compendium ($17)
- Heroes of the Fallen Lands ($17)
- Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms ($17)
- Dungeon Master's Kit ($30)
- Monster Vault ($22)
- Campaign Setting ($31 + $23 for Campaign and Player's Guides)
TOTAL: $157

3) D&D 4e
- Rules Compendium (since it includes all the errata and updated D&D 4e rules, $17)
- Players Handbook 1, 2, and 3 ($27 each)
- Dungeon Master's Guide 1 and 2 ($25 and $27)
- Monster Manual 1 and 2 ($25, $27, and $26)
- Campaign Setting ($31 + $23 for Campaign and Player's Guides)
TOTAL: $282

As can be seen, getting the CORE books for 4e is just expensive. Not only that, but they are heavily outdated and with the new Essentials characters, may end up being "Essentialized" anytime soon. So many people (on EnWorld) just say to drop the old 4e stuff and just use the Character Builder and Rules Compendium. That's nice, except I enjoy learning from reading a book. That is a large part of my interest in getting a D&D game. The Essentials is a more inexpensive path, especially since I don't need the Dungeon Master's Kit right away. However, I only end up with 2 Essentials Players Books and a whole set up (complex, yet) high uncustomizable options for characters (from the limited and pre-determined builds I saw looking at it earlier. Pathfinder gives a 576-page manual that is just, literally, impressive. The GameMastery guide, like the Essentials Dungeon Master's Kit, is not necessary until you plan on DM'ing a game. In the end, the $60 I will pay to "try" Pathfinder is the cost of a video game. If I don't like the game, I get nearly 1000 pages of interesting fantasy fluff which may be very enjoyable on it's own. If you don't like a video or board game, you're left with a box on the shelf collecting dust.


So here are my questions for players of either D&D 4e and/or Pathfinder:

1) Concerning character unbalance in Pathfinder (not 3.5e), does it make the game unfun? My friend claims that it is not that bad for 3.5 when you use a couple house rules. Also, I enjoy spellcasters more than fighters. I see fighters are being tanks and hitters, not spellcaster and ability-laden classes (which it seems 4e does, given the characters roles).

2) What makes D&D 4e feel like World of Warcraft? While having played that game for 1 month, I didn't find it that amazing (it was a good game, just not life-changing). Baldur's Gate II, on the other hand, introduced me to a world of endless opportunities and such (D&D 2 rules). I like customization. I want my character, weak or strong, to be and do the things I want them to. I don't like the long drawn out combat that I hear 4e has. I want tactical combat (I like wargames).

3) I have a BattleMat and some Lego (yeah, lego) for mini's (for now...). Does Pathfinder/D&D 3.5 play well with a map or is it better pen and paper? I would like to visualize what is going on and dungeon crawl like I would in Baldur's Gate II.

4) Can you play as more than one character in Pathfinder? Since the game focuses on spellcasters (it seems), it would be nice to make a fighter or monk along with one spellcaster. That way, you will HAVE a powerful character to complement the weak one. With only 1-3 other players, this might be a good way to make a larger team.

5) I hate errata (something keeping more away from D&D 4e). I see that there is a second printing of the Pathfinder core rules. The 2nd Edition seems to have very little (2 pages) errata (which I can handle). The first printing of the Bestiary has like 7 pages or errata. Is there a second printing? If so, it is reasonable to believe that Amazon Canada would be selling the second printings (as opposed to the first)? Also, is the Advanced Players Guide and GameMasters Guide full of errors?

Hope this helps others with the same decisions as me. I am pretty set on Pathfinders due to it being so well taken. The Amazon USA reviews are stellar. It won ENworld's RPG award. I don't expect the game to be perfect. I just want something that is enjoyable. I don't mind some imbalance, as long as it doesn't completely destroy the enjoyment of the player who has the character getting shafted.

Thanks,
baconcow

 

[Jack99]

Doesn't this belong in the general forum? It would be awesome if we could keep the edition wars out of the 4e forum.

@OP

If you choose (which I obviously think you should) 4e (core or essentials or a mix) there are cheaper ways to get what you need. Namely via the DDI. While it doesn't replaces all books, you could certainly just invest in a campaign setting, the DMG's and a DDI sub. Which would give you access to all the classes and monsters.

 

[Remathilis]

Ok, quick note; I'm a Pathfinder DM with a heavy dose of interest in D&De.

1.) Pathfinder's method of fixing character imbalance was to take classes that (on a scale of 1-10, 10 being most powerful) ranked between 4 and 9 and ratchet them ALL up to 10. This means some classes (sorcerer, bard, ranger, monk) got heavy handfuls of new abilities, while classes already near apex (druid, wizard, cleric) got a few new class-toys and LOTS of nerfed spells. The net effect I've noticed is that PF PCs are more durable than their 3.5 counterparts, but not necessarily more devastating. This injects longevity to the "15 min workday" but doesn't really address some of the other issues. However, some of the new class features for marital classes due begin to close the gap with casters. (see below).

2.) 4e began using some common MMO-RPG terminology to describe itself, leading to some comparisons between it and WoW. For example; fighters were assumed to "tank" (soak hits) and control "aggro" (mark foes so they want to attack him and not squishy mages). Rogues became strikers, expanding their role as skirimsher/backstabber to full-on max-damage dealer. Mages, by contrast, became less about high damage or utility magic and more about "control" (slowing foes, reducing their attacks, hitting multiple foes at once). Additionally, the whole "powers" system (esp the encounter/daily system) felt to many like the different cooldowns for WoW powers (so as not to spam your best attacks).

Interestingly, Essentials pulls away from this a lot; the slayer is a fighter obsessed with damage not marking for example. All martial classes are built around modifying base attacks, meaning no daily "cooldown" for martial classes.

3.) Call this one a wash. 3.5 and 4e both assume battle grids and some token representation of your PCs/foes. Things like spell area, threatening area/reach, movement powers, and attacks of opportunity depend on careful square counting. It is possible to play both without said items, but it will require a lot of DM ad-hoc rulings on distance and scale.

4.) You can, but its not needed. The gap between marital and magical is smaller in PF, thanks to martial classes getting more abilities that can mimic spells. Rogues and fighters can get feats that add condition riders (blinded, stunned, or fatigued for example). Monks get a LOT more added power, and barbarians get some ability to shrug off hits, even heal themselves with rage! Casters got some hits too; save or die has become save-or-take-a-boatload-of-damage, polymorph was reigned in to several specific spells, and concentration/casting in melee got a LOT harder! The biggest offender in inequality (magic items) remains the same, but nothing short of a re-write was going to fix that.

Still, good luck playing EITHER game with 2 PCs, at high levels (where casters shine) remembering what every feat, spell, power, and magic item 2 PCs have will be a logistical nightmare; good luck with those temporary buffs!

5.) PF has less errata because MOST of it was hashed out over 8+ years of 3.5's lifespan! Still, the small amount in the PHB is barely noticeable (the biggest being a forgotten option for the bard and the summoning table being messed up a bit) and MOST of the monsters in the Bestiary run fine as is ( a few messed up saves or Hp for example).
By Comparison, D&D Essentials has the same bennie: its had 2 years of 4e's run to hammer out errata. It fixes a lot of small problems with 4e and the math involved in it.

Both PF and 4e have online updates, including revised versions posted online (PF's at the PRD, 4es via the Compendium). PF's is free, 4es is part of a DDi sub. 4e has the character and monster builder online tools, something PF definitely lacks.

Hope that helps.

 

[fletch137]

It's actually not that hard to sample both games to see how they work for you.

The Pathfinder rules are available as a pdf from Paizo for $10, while a $15 fee will net you one month's access to the DDI rule compendium and a copy of the then-most-current character builder to use forever.

Step 2 is to find your local organized play venue and try a session of Living Forgotten Realms (full 4e rules), D&D Encounters (Essentials-only) and Pathfinder Society (PFRPG). Each is a four-hour block of gaming that doesn't require you to do anything other than show up with a character.

 

[Obryn]

Well, one of the things to keep in mind when comparing costs is the DDI, if that's an option for you. You could play 4e right now with the Rules Compenium and a one-month DDI subscription. This would mean fewer books for browsing, but it would also mean access to every player option and monster released before August, and a few hundred adventures from Dungeon.

(Don't get me wrong - the core rules for PF and 3.5 are free, but the amount of useful stuff you'd get for somewhere around $25 for 4e is frankly staggering. Also, IMO, the Character and Monster Builders are worth their weight in gold.)

I also don't think the books you mention are all actually required for Core 4e; you certainly wouldn't need all three PHBs, both DMGs, both Monster Manuals, etc. That's crazy talk, and not really a fair comparison. You would only need PHB3 if you wanted psionics, for example, and would only need PHB2 if more exotic classes appealed to you. You also might want PHB3 if you start out with the Essentials Heroes books, and you might not want MM1 or MM2 if you get the Monster Vault. And you might not want any of them with DDI.

As for outdatedness, edition changes, etc. - those arguments have been hashed to death elsewhere. I think you'll find the PHB is a lot less "outdated" than you'd expect.

Personally, I think you should pay a lot more attention to what the local people are playing in your area, and just go whichever way that is. Having a game to play every week is much better than taking a stand on a game nobody will play with you.

-O

 

[AngryMojo]

As for the errata and essentials not being 4.5 thing goes...

I know it can look intimidating, but if you actually look at the 22 pages of errata on the PhB, very little of it is actually core rules. Most of the errata involves specific powers, feats or class abilities. Essentials isn't really 4.5 because it doesn't actually change very much at all. Most all of the changes are small tweaks to existing powers or class abilities, with no actual change to the guts of the game.

If you want the minimum amount required to run a game of 4e, I'd say you're looking at a $75 investment total, in the form of the Rules Compendium, the Dungeonmaster's Guide and a one-month subscription to DDI so you can have the full Character Builder, Monster Builder, and full downloads of Dungeon and Dragon for the past 2+ years. Playing is even less, all you really need is the Rules Compendium and a month of DDI, so $30 total.

The biggest advantage to Pathfinder is probably that it's an older game, and has far more time in development than 4e. Most of the little fiddly problems with Pathfinder were weeded out in the 8-year edition life-cycle of 3e. 4e, however, has a large amount of online tools to help you sift through rules updates and expansions. Given the two, I prefer 4e, but that's just me. Both are very strong games, and a blast with a good group.

 

[Jools]

I think you're spending too much many there. If you want to give 4e a go you could just get the redbox starter set or if you wanted a little more get heroes of the fallen lands and the DM kit. You really don't need more than that.

As for D&D being like WOW, it really isn't. Man, I thought we'd finally gotten past all that hate, hate nonsense. Wherever you read that, I would not be too impressed with that source of information.

 

[baconcow]

@ Obryn & AngryMojo,
While I agree with the advantages that everyone is stating with 4e: Character Builder and Monster Builder online. The only thing is I WANT books and I don't want to be left out of PHB characters. I want to have the books so that I can sit and read through the characters when I am not on my computer, whether it be the new Essentials PB's, 3 PHB's from 4e, or the Core book from Pathfinder. I know I can pay $35 and get a one-month subscription and the Rules Compendium, but that leaves out so much offline content which I would enjoy to have. I used to buy Legend of Zelda players guides just for the fluff and content. As far as local players are concerned, I only know one who plays 3.5e. I am sure I would find some more 3.5/4e players if I go to some of the FLGS's and post a player-finder post.

@ Jools,
I have no interest in getting a starters kit. Also, if you get rid of the Eberron books, the list I have is pretty much what you suggested (minus the Red Box and including the Monster Vault). The WoW comments were from a few Reviews and Forum comments that I read about 4e. I didn't see it as a negative thing about the comment. But, having briefly played WoW, I was curious about where it was deriving from after reading it several times. I would personally enjoy an RPG more like Guild Wars, Baldur's Gate II, or Diablo II (I know D2 is really more of an arcade RPG feel, but I still enjoyed it).

Thanks a lot for the responses. I'll thank you all properly within 24 hours (ran out of thumbs). I appreciate the time put into them.

 

[OnlineDM]

My two cents: It sounds like you'll enjoy Pathfinder more. I've never played it, and I love D&D 4e, but if you want more complexity and less errata it sounds like Pathfinder is the way to go.

If you didn't care about having lots of complexity, I would recommend D&D 4e with the Essentials books only (plus DDI for any older stuff that you'd like to add). Since you want physical books, though, and you do want that complexity, I agree that it gets expensive for D&D 4e and you have to deal with errata for everything pre-Essentials.

To be clear, I would steer most new players toward D&D 4e (assuming they either don't desire lots of complexity or they're happy with electronic materials). But your specific desires point toward Pathfinder, in my opinion.

 

[Obryn]

If the books are a must-have, then I'd more worry about starting slow and easing into it before spending a bunch of money. It'd be silly to lay out hundreds of dollars for a game you might not even enjoy. This goes for PF and 4e both.

My new advice: Download the free starter rules and Keep on the Shadowfell from the WotC site. If you want to make your own characters, either download the free version of character builder, which will suffice for level 1-3 characters, or grab Heroes of the Fallen Lands for like $20. Find some players, play it, and see if it's your speed. If it's not, your total expenditure could be as low as $0.

As far as Heroes of the Fallen Lands goes, while the martial builds are, indeed, simplified, they're still around the same player complexity level as 3.5 Fighters and Rogues, or even a mite higher. It's a very readable book, friendly to new players, and has a bunch of fluff to read. (I can't speak to Forgotten Kingdoms yet, since it hasn't even really been previewed.) From there, there's no need to stick strictly with the Essentials line; it's all 4e. You could go with any DM or Player books you wanted, and very little of the class information will be duplicated.

-O