D&D 4E Deciding Between PFTPG and D&D4e/E. Also, Four Simple Questions (D&D 4e repost)

[baconcow]

Thanks for the reply. I have decided to get Pathfinder. The $60 I listed was Canadian, as that is the cost of the Core Rules and Bestiary from Amazon.ca. I am a University student from Amazon.ca does not offer this plan that you mentioned (to my knowledge). As for the Essentials, the Rules Compendium alone costs nearly $18 Canadian. I'm already going through some of the OGL material for Pathfinder and whatever else I could find. Seems pretty straight-forward.

 

[jbear]

Good luck with your game, I hope you have a blast!

Really I'm just chiming in here to say that I found it refreshing to see how everyone who has responded has been so friendly and polite.

Good show old chaps!

 

[vagabundo]

I'd suggest neither. Or at least not to the extent you are suggesting. Before you lay down tonnes of cash on either system get into a game of 3e(PF) and a game of 4e and then let your buying habits follow your interest.

On the 4e errata issue: dont let it bother you. The 4e PHB1 is perfectly playable and if you need more options after that plunk down for a month of DDI and download all the digital apps and make character from there.

Are you going to DM or play? Are you looking to setup and DM a new game? If so go with 4e, it is a lot easier to DM than 3e/Pf for most people.

 

[ourchair]

1) Non-Essentials

D&D 4e appears to be outdated with the new Essentials (4E) lineup. I don't want to buy errata-filled books which are not even the current rulesets. There are a LOT of D&D 4e books which, while not bad, DOES intimidate me because I cannot read fast and do not have a lot of money (only a lot of Amazon.ca gift cards).

2) Essentials
Now, the problem with this option is that the game has recently gone through several changes with the new Essentials lineup. The players Handbook 1 has 22 pages of Errata. There is a new Essentials rulebook (Rules Compendium). New players handbooks (Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms). I looked at the Rules Compendium today and it looked well done. However, the Heroes of the Fallen Lands book looked so elementary. Characters had some fluff followed by what seemed to be a limited amount of pre-determined builds. Everything seemed to have limited customization. Now, while players don't consider Essentials 4.5, I cannot see how such rule changes to the game and character development is still 4.0e. Now, I get a "n00b" start to what appears to be a rather complicated game. But if I was intimidated by rules, I would just play World of Warcraft or Guild Wars again. I can then buy some of the pre-Essentials items to round it out or rely on the Character Builder which, while interesting (the demo), seems to limit the immersion I want to get out of the books (I enjoy fluff).

Before you think about whether the rules are up to date are not, and try to ensure that everything in your startup kit is errata-maxed, I think you should consider the potential satisfaction you get from the system. You can get away with playing 4th Edition without errata, so long as everyone at the table is having fun, and the DM is reasonable and capable of resolving problematic points in mechanics.

For example: While there's a significant amount of errata that makes major changes to powers -- Magic Missile, et al -- a larger chunk of errata is really just nitpicking adjustments like rewriting the phraseology of the Stealth rules so that people stop exploiting the wording so they can perform cheese maneuvers. Simply put, the errata is unnecessary if a DM can say, "NO. I don't care how you read the wording, you cannot perform your cheese maneuver since the rule was obviously not intended that way."

Regardless most of the moving parts that are addressed by errata lie in powers and race and class features that are up dated in the character builder. Not that you should feel required to have a DDI subscription, but if you pay for a few months subscription, the broken bits are mostly taken care of for you until the next major set of revisions which frankly, tend to only occur when big changes happen in new supplements.

2) D&D 4 Essentials
TOTAL: $157

3) D&D 4e
TOTAL: $282

I think it's really unnecessary for you to invest in all of these books at once.

So many people (on EnWorld) just say to drop the old 4e stuff and just use the Character Builder and Rules Compendium. That's nice, except I enjoy learning from reading a book. That is a large part of my interest in getting a D&D game.

I completely agree with you. I prefer to learn from a book, even if I run a game using mostly digital tools and pieces of prefab content. I think you should mix it up then. Get a combination of books while using those materials.

My recommendation? Think in terms of needs.
LEARN HOW TO DESIGN: Dungeon Master's Guide 1/Dungeon Master's Kit.
LEARN HOW TO PLAY: Player's Handbook 1/Heroes of the Fallen Lands.
BUILD ANY CHARACTER, REVISED W/ ERRATA: Character Builder (DDI)
USE ANY MONSTER, W/ NEW STAT BLOCK: Adventure Tools (DDI)

I think it's not so necessary to have complete books. 4E is based on a premise of simple baseline rules, broken by multiple exceptions (as given by character abilities). In that sense, the later supplements merely add on complexity and options.

The additional DMG2 adds mechanical options -- as well as more 'fluffy' storytelling techniques -- that can help build a better game, but aren't really crucial if you're a pretty creative person yourself.

The additional PHBs don't really address anything critical to play EXCEPT for the mechanics unique to the classes (i.e. How to use psionics, et al). All the basic rules are in the first PHB

The Monster Manuals have some fluff that helps you make contextual sense of the monsters in the Adventure Tools, but aren't really necessary if you're just a creative person who will make your own monsters or take existing ones and 'reimagine' by renaming their powers and changing their descriptions.

2) What makes D&D 4e feel like World of Warcraft? While having played that game for 1 month, I didn't find it that amazing (it was a good game, just not life-changing). Baldur's Gate II, on the other hand, introduced me to a world of endless opportunities and such (D&D 2 rules). I like customization. I want my character, weak or strong, to be and do the things I want them to. I don't like the long drawn out combat that I hear 4e has. I want tactical combat (I like wargames).

I've never EVER played World of Warcraft, but it's like World of Warcraft in the sense that the characters are designed to work as a team and have clear cut roles in how to do that and combat is a highly tactical affair (and sometimes, a time-consuming one if you don't take measures to avoid it)

That's pretty much where the similarities end, as far as I'm concerned. 4th Edition can seem very videogamey if you take the books at "page value" by throwing your players into one combat after another, and reducing all non-combat situations into a series of lifeless skill checks.

But if you're creative and have a flair for taking these components and making them into a narrative string that is exciting ("We chased the bad guys on a moving train, but then it crashed! And then we had to fight! But then the enemy surrendered, so we had to interrogate him! But it turns out he was a good guy, so we had to investigate and find out who the real traitor was!") then it's nothing like World of Warcraft.

As for customization: there's a lot of that in 4th Edition. You can make a broad range of characters, so long as your players can find creative ways to justify the gamey things they choose, like creating rich backgrounds for why they've built an Elven Swordmage/Artificer or taken a story angle as to why they've inherited the Mark of Warding.

You might miss being able to take skills like "Ride" or "Craft" but those are things a DM handwaves by communicating with his players about what they want their characters to be, rather than requiring them to invest character-building resources in them at the expense of more meaningful tasks like uh, role-playing.

 

[BobTheNob]

Its funny that the OP hates errata. I am the opposite. I LOVE errata, cause it shows that the game designers care about the game. With 4e, the errata that has come out has been (mostly) on the money.

An earlier post pointed out that Pathfinder doesnt have errata because, well, its like a big book of errata. 3.0 was (to me) an overtly abuse prone system because when the issues started arising and the abuses became apparent, what did the producers do? Release another source book! with its own issues and power creep. Its like trying to smother a fire with petrol.

I found 3.5 woeful (like a band-aid on a bullet wound), and pathfinder to be the big book of errata 3.0 needed in the first place.

I think PF is good, but I am a 4e man because, unfortunately (and this is entirely opinion) 3.0 was too flawed in the first place, and PF, as good as it is, is a house built on sand.

 

[baconcow]

Looks like WotC designed Essentials to fix people's dislike for 4e. I just browsed the WotC forums, some unhappy people there. Errata wouldn't be so bad if they would reprint it into their books once every year or so. One and a half years later and PF core rules is on a third printing. Why couldn't WotC do this method instead of printing off a trillion copies? I know what you're saying, Bob, but PDF errata always annoyed me in my Engineering textbooks. I never liked printing it off and sticking it in the back of the book, it always fell out and made me feel like the book was rushed (even though it probably wasn't).

 

[UHF]

I think first, you should decide whether you're married to paper and pencil RPGs. I personally find them bland. I own Pathfinder, and I play Castles and Crusades, but I really really like 4e.

My friend has been DMing AD&D with minis for 30 years. I find no real difference in game impact to having a more tactical game. 4e just makes it more fun.

Imbalance in PF\3.5 hits at level 5. That's when the wizard takes over. If you're a good DM, there's no issue... if you're not. Well... not fun.

I really have no idea where you're getting unhappy about 4e rules errata. The unaltered rules work just fine. I've hardly noticed the errata and I run 2 weekly games. Character Generator will instantly bring you up to date, but even if you didn't have it, there is little that is damaging to your game. Most of what is in there is clarifications.

 

[geekgazette]

Thanks for the reply. I have decided to get Pathfinder.

Even though I do like 4e Essentials, I have to admit that I'm glad to hear you went with Pathfinder. It's always pleasing when someone new picks up your game of choice.

The $60 I listed was Canadian, as that is the cost of the Core Rules and Bestiary from Amazon.ca. I am a University student from Amazon.ca does not offer this plan that you mentioned (to my knowledge). As for the Essentials, the Rules Compendium alone costs nearly $18 Canadian. I'm already going through some of the OGL material for Pathfinder and whatever else I could find. Seems pretty straight-forward.

I have to admit that I am ignorant when it comes to this, but can't you just order from Amazon.com rather than Amazon.ca? I'm just curious because if that were the case and you had an edu email, you could sign up for the student account.
Also have you though about going to Paizo's site and just buying the pdfs? I think they are still $9.99. That way you can preview the core rules before you commit.

 

[baconcow]

Even though I do like 4e Essentials, I have to admit that I'm glad to hear you went with Pathfinder. It's always pleasing when someone new picks up your game of choice.


I have to admit that I am ignorant when it comes to this, but can't you just order from Amazon.com rather than Amazon.ca? I'm just curious because if that were the case and you had an edu email, you could sign up for the student account.
Also have you though about going to Paizo's site and just buying the pdfs? I think they are still $9.99. That way you can preview the core rules before you commit.

I can take a bus down to Chapters for free again (student bus pass), sit down for 2 hours (again) and look through the Pathfinder Core Rules (gotta love the freedom of Chapters). Amazon.com charges $7 for shipping to Canada (minimum) and also customs fees (approximately Canadian taxes). In the end, the products would be cheaper/quicker to get in Canada as the shipping costs go up with each item. I guess I should have pointed out that I am not on a SUPER tight budget. I will probably end up trying 4e a couple years down the road when I am done playing around with Pathfinder and want something different. By then, hopefully the issues I have with Essentials and 4e colliding and not knowing which path to take will be ironed out. I didn't expect this topic (and the one posted on the Pathfinder/Legacy forum) to go so long. I really appreciate all the support from everyone this far.

I have always played Eurogames/Wargames and video games and this time I wanted to try something a little more in-depth and different (well, some of my board games are pretty heavy: Twilight Imperium III).

 

[geekgazette]

The unaltered rules work just fine. I've hardly noticed the errata and I run 2 weekly games. Character Generator will instantly bring you up to date, but even if you didn't have it, there is little that is damaging to your game. Most of what is in there is clarifications.

I agree. I download errata for every game I own/run, but I never use it. Most of the time I don't even read it. It's just one of those silly things I feel I need to do, even though I know I won't use it. That's my gamer OCD coming through I guess.