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How effective is grappling?
- Thread starter Theroc
- Start date
Persiflage
First Post
I've seen some really effective grappling/lockdown builds in play involving dips to Tome of Battle classes to pick up Setting Sun and Stone Dragon maneuvers. Adding the constrict ability to a Large (or larger) grappler is nice.
On the other hand, said builds either circumvented or subverted the general objections to grappling by a) doing more-or-less as much damage in a grapple as a melee attacker would, and b) having a load of combat options that weren't grappling so they could still be useful when grappling was ill-advised or ineffective.
Half-Giant Psychic Warriors can make devastating grapplers: Expansion plus a load of natural weapons make for a real Magimix effect. The big plus with PsyWar is that you get a good number of bonus feats, so adding a couple of grapple-specific feats into the mix doesn't lose you too much elsewhere. And of course they can not only do plenty of damage in a grapple, but also retain a bucketload of other combat options.
For all of that though, I echo the general sentiment. Grappling isn't a great PC tactic in the long run.
Actually, thats arrant nonsense: grappling is a fantastic tactic for PC's, but usually only when the Wizard or Druid do it
On the other hand, said builds either circumvented or subverted the general objections to grappling by a) doing more-or-less as much damage in a grapple as a melee attacker would, and b) having a load of combat options that weren't grappling so they could still be useful when grappling was ill-advised or ineffective.
Half-Giant Psychic Warriors can make devastating grapplers: Expansion plus a load of natural weapons make for a real Magimix effect. The big plus with PsyWar is that you get a good number of bonus feats, so adding a couple of grapple-specific feats into the mix doesn't lose you too much elsewhere. And of course they can not only do plenty of damage in a grapple, but also retain a bucketload of other combat options.
For all of that though, I echo the general sentiment. Grappling isn't a great PC tactic in the long run.
Actually, thats arrant nonsense: grappling is a fantastic tactic for PC's, but usually only when the Wizard or Druid do it
Persiflage
First Post
3 rounds is a long time to hang onto a cleric; I'd be chuffed if I managed that
Of course, spellcasters have recourse to stuff like Transdimensional Tentacles, which really screw over incorporeal types. Not to mention freakin' Kelpstrand: since my players cottoned onto that one, my bad guys have had a seriously rough ride...
Maybe that should be the answer to the OP: if you wanna grapple and have it matter, be a Wizard or a Druid.
Of course, spellcasters have recourse to stuff like Transdimensional Tentacles, which really screw over incorporeal types. Not to mention freakin' Kelpstrand: since my players cottoned onto that one, my bad guys have had a seriously rough ride...
Maybe that should be the answer to the OP: if you wanna grapple and have it matter, be a Wizard or a Druid.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
That's actually a really good question, and I'm not entirely sure myself.
RAW, my first instinct is to say you can't, because a grapple is a check, not an attack. It doesn't auto fail or succeed on a natural 20, for instance. Weapon Finesse lets you use dex on attacks, so the case should be closed. But there's one particular RAW loophole. Observe the text of Weapon Focus (and Specialization, if you scroll down, too): Feats :: d20srd.org
"Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat."
Now, I like to rule logically. Something's either a weapon, or it isn't. If you can treat something as a weapon for one generic combat feat, why not others? And if it's a weapon, you're attacking with it. Weapon Focus, in fact, modifies attack rolls.
So...if you'd allow someone to take Weapon Focus (grapple), then Weapon Finesse should work. If you wouldn't, probably not. Very murky, though. Personally (IMO, etc...), I think of grappling strictly as a check, not an attack. But at the same time, I like the idea of a dex grappler, and love that Tome of Battle made dex-based tripping possible. I'd really like to allow it...
RAW, my first instinct is to say you can't, because a grapple is a check, not an attack. It doesn't auto fail or succeed on a natural 20, for instance. Weapon Finesse lets you use dex on attacks, so the case should be closed. But there's one particular RAW loophole. Observe the text of Weapon Focus (and Specialization, if you scroll down, too): Feats :: d20srd.org
"Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat."
Now, I like to rule logically. Something's either a weapon, or it isn't. If you can treat something as a weapon for one generic combat feat, why not others? And if it's a weapon, you're attacking with it. Weapon Focus, in fact, modifies attack rolls.
So...if you'd allow someone to take Weapon Focus (grapple), then Weapon Finesse should work. If you wouldn't, probably not. Very murky, though. Personally (IMO, etc...), I think of grappling strictly as a check, not an attack. But at the same time, I like the idea of a dex grappler, and love that Tome of Battle made dex-based tripping possible. I'd really like to allow it...
Persiflage
First Post
By RAW, I don't believe you'd get your Dex bonus to the grapple check. It's a specific opposed check that uses BAB + Str + size modifiers + special modifiers.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised at any DM who called that a grapple check is similar enough to an attack roll that you could use a feat like Weapon Finesse in a grapple. [1]
However, I believe you would get your Dex mod to the touch attack used to initiate the grapple... or at least, I feel it'd be distinctly harsh to disallow it.
I started writing this feeling all definite about it, but the more I read, the more I chopped out of the post and toned down on the certainty as I realised how many words have been spent (and on how many forums) on this and related topics. Which has left me with this somewhat wishy-washy response
[1] For what it's worth, I've been guilty of allowing real-life experiences to influence my house-ruling on this very topic... Long story short, I've allowed defenders to use their Str or Dex modifier in the opposed rolls, whichever is better. My bad.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised at any DM who called that a grapple check is similar enough to an attack roll that you could use a feat like Weapon Finesse in a grapple. [1]
However, I believe you would get your Dex mod to the touch attack used to initiate the grapple... or at least, I feel it'd be distinctly harsh to disallow it.
I started writing this feeling all definite about it, but the more I read, the more I chopped out of the post and toned down on the certainty as I realised how many words have been spent (and on how many forums) on this and related topics. Which has left me with this somewhat wishy-washy response
[1] For what it's worth, I've been guilty of allowing real-life experiences to influence my house-ruling on this very topic... Long story short, I've allowed defenders to use their Str or Dex modifier in the opposed rolls, whichever is better. My bad.
Piscivorous
First Post
Do like a couatl. Grapple and bring prey up 200-300 feet then go ethereal.
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