Classic D&D Basic with 4E Skills System

[Melkor]

Hi folks,

If you were going to take Classic D&D and add or bolt on the 4E skills system, how would you go about doing it?

How many "trained" skills would you give each class?

How would you integrate Thief abilities with the 4E skill system?

Just a crazy thought, but I am interested to see how you guys would handle it.

Thanks.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I can't remember how many skills 4e has, or what they are, so. . . take this with even more salt than usual, I would recommend.

I would give certain skills* to certain classes, only - that is, not just "trained" or whatever, but available at all. For example, Stealth and um, Thievery(?) for Thieves, of course. Probably at least a couple more as well - after all, Thieves would still be the "skill monkeys", no?

That's the way I see skills working for such a system. Even then, I'd feel a bit dubious about it, but I'd certainly be willing to give it a go, were a DM to suggest it.

Sorry, that's all I got atm - not very familiar with 4e, having read through it only once.

* That is to say, not all.


edit: Oh, and presumably, thief skills would disappear, given "Skills" taking their place. . . er, and I was about to say that Thieves should have more Skill Points, then realised - 4e ain't got dem. Perhaps I'd best leave this thread to those who know the system in question.

 

[P1NBACK]

I think it'd be fairly easy. To keep it simple, I would drop the whole "add 1/2 level" like 4E does though (of course, you could keep this). Instead, just give the flat +5 for trained plus the ability modifier (13-15 is +1, 16-17 is +2, 18 is +3). If you're not trained, it's just an ability check.

Then, I'd have a general DC for all levels: Easy 10, Hard 15, Very Hard 20.

A trained character with an 18 would have a +8 bonus and defeat "Very Hard" challenges on a 12 or better.

Give each class four or so trained skills.

Clerics - Diplomacy, Heal, Insight, Religion
Dwarves - Athletics, Dungeoneering, Endurance, Intimidate or History
Elves - Acrobatics, Arcana, Nature, Perception or Insight
Fighters - Athletics, Endurance, Heal, Intimidate
Halflings - Diplomacy, Perception, Stealth, Streetwise or Nature
Magic-Users - Arcana, Diplomacy, History, and choose Nature, Dungeoneering or Religion
Thieves - Acrobatics or Bluff, Stealth, Streetwise, Thievery

Something like that.

Obviously, this would override some rules in the original book (like thieves percentages and all that).

 

[Dausuul]

Hi folks,

If you were going to take Classic D&D and add bolt on the 4E skills system, how would you go about doing it?

How many "trained" skills would you give each class?

How would you integrate Thief abilities with the 4E skill system?

Just a crazy thought, but I am interested to see how you guys would handle it.

Thanks.

Hmm, let me see.

Certain skills would be auto-trained for all classes. Fighters get Endurance, magic-users get Arcana, clerics get Religion, thieves get Thievery (duh) and Stealth.

Beyond that, I would give out 5 trained skills for thieves and 3 for everyone else. Since Classic doesn't have feats, and hence no way to get Skill Training and Skill Focus, I wouldn't have "class skills" per se; you can use your trained skills for anything. However, I'd add a class-based bonus to certain skills, something like:

Fighters get +3 to Athletics and Endurance.
Magic-users get +3 to Arcana and History.
Clerics get +3 to Religion and Heal.
Thieves get +3 to Acrobatics, Stealth, Perception, and Thievery.

I would also give thieves the special ability to use Acrobatics in place of Athletics for wall-climbing. Then do away altogether with percentage-based thief special abilities.

Basic mechanics stay the same. Training gives +5, apply your ability score bonus (using the Classic bonuses), and add 1/2 your level rounded down--at least to trained skills. One could make the case that untrained skills should not advance with level.

 

[Roadkill101]

I've already done this to an extant. Earlier this summer I hacked together an edition composite using Basic/Expert as the base for rules and races/classes, to run one-shot games for low attendance sessions.

I used and tweaked the 4e skill system. The tweak comes in the form of combining Diplomacy and Intimidate into one skill called Social Interaction (I see both skills as being pretty much two sides of the same coin). Otherwise I use the skill system as per the 4e rules.

Each Class/Race gets a total of 5 trained skills to start with (allowing for better versatility in the skills department). One or two of these skills are predetermined the rest are chosen by players choice as follows:
Clerics: Trained in Religeon & Social Interaction, 3 choices.
Dwarves: Trained in Endurance, 4 choices.
Elves: Trained in Arcana & Nature, 3 choices.
Fighters: Trained in Athletics, 4 choices.
Haflings: Trained in Stealth, 4 choices.
Magic Users: Trained in Arcana, 4 choices.
Thieves: Trained in Stealth & Thievery, 3 choices.

 

[Voadam]

Four seems fair. Low skill classes in 4e get at least three.

I wouldn't worry about class skills, I'm fine with non-archetypal class skills for specific characters so a fighter with arcana, dungeoneering, religion, and perception is fine by me.

I would drop the normal thief skills and probably give them bonus skills and/or a straightforward sneak attack ability.

Most classes have a 4e analog and you'd be fine going with that for class skill lists and number of skills. (fighter-fighter, thief-rogue, cleric-cleric, magic-user-wizard, elf-swordmage? dwarf-fighter, halfling-rogue?)

 

[TerraDave]

4E skills are good as they are "adventure" oriented.

Replace theif skills (and halflling, etc skills) with these, and give them plenty. This way theives suck a lot less.

You can decide if each class gets a set, or has some choice (I would probably have a list of 3-5, with a choice of one more).

You can use different math. My feeling is that 3+level (for a skill you "have") would fit the power curve about right. A little less good at low levels, since these charecters are in general less good at low levels, but with a faster climb to reflect the fact that level 10charecters are "high" level.

Finally, you might want to simplify a bit to match the old school vibe. The new set of default DCs that are floating around, plus one or two sentance skill descriptions, is probably enough.

 

[Jack Daniel]

A word on the skill check itself. Classic D&D does not make use of a generalized "roll high vs. Difficulty Class" mechanic anywhere else, so if you want 4e skills to "feel" like the rest of the classic D&D rules, it would be wise to adopt a simpler system with static skill checks.

My recommendation would be something like this:
For a trained skill check, roll 1d20 vs. the appropriate ability score; check passes if the roll is equal to or less than the ability score.
For an untrained skill check (or, by extension, an ordinary ability check), roll 1d20 vs. one-half the ability score, rounded down.

Trained skills for most classes: 4 + Int mod
Trained skills for thieves: 6 + Int mod (the "Thievery" skill and others would largely replace all of the d% thieving skills; I would make it up to thieves by giving them six-sided hit dice and the increased backstab damage from AD&D, viz. x3 at 5th level, x4 at 9th level, x5 at 13th level).
Elves: Get "Perception" as a bonus trained skill (replaces "find secret doors" ability)
Dwarves: Get "Dungeoneering" as a bonus trained skill (replaces "find unusual stonework traps and notice slopes" ability)
Halflings: Get "Stealth" as a bonus trained skill (replaces "disappear with 90% success in wilderness and 33% success in dungeons" ability)

Since classic D&D doesn't have feat slots whereby characters could pick up extra skill training, they should have the opportunity to learn extra skills at regular intervals, too. The "general skills" system from the Gaz books and RC had roughly 30+ skills, allowed characters to start with 4 + Int mod, and added a new skill at every four levels above the first (5th, 9th, 13th, etc.) This is a bit much, assuming the 4e list of seventeen skills and the full spread of 36 experience levels attainable in classic D&D. Maybe let characters add a new skill at every eight levels above the first, i.e. 9th, 17th, 25th, and 33rd.

 

[Stormonu]

I'd probably have it a "roll under this number on d20 to succeed". Thief skills would be divided by 5% to get the number on a d20 or less to succeed.

Other skills would probably start at 0 plus related ability modifier. Add an additional +3 if it's a class skill. Give an additional +1 per 2 levels. Might just do this for thief skills instead of the conversion above. You'd then have to give some circumstance modifiers to the "roll equal or under" based on how hard the actions was (such as for Climb to replicate the Basic thief Climb chances).

For example, Hide/Move Silently (Stealth) for a thief with a Dex 15 would have a "roll equal or under" number of (0 + 1 for Dex + 3 for "class" skill=) 4. At 2nd level, the thief would need to roll a 5 or less, and so on.

For a class skill to "max out", you'd have to be 34th level or higher if you don't have an ability bonus.

 

[WheresMyD20]

I would try either

A) d20 under ability score
B) d20 + ability score vs. a DC (default 21)
C) d20 + 1/2 character level + ability score mod vs. a DC (15 is about medium difficulty)

In any case, if the skill was trained, I'd roll 2 dice and take the better result. If the skill is untrained, just roll 1 die.