The Father Of...

[GreyLord]

I was just thinking about the history of RPG's...and who we consider the father of RPG's and D&D. I know traditionally we've attributed it to Gary Gygax and I used to agree (Especially when talking to him and discussing stuff). I never knew Arneson, but as I've found out more about him, I've thought that perhaps HE's actually the father of RPG's and Gygax is the Father of D&D. Perhaps it would be more Gygax is the Father of D&D and RPG's with set rules. This thread isn't for me to go on and on about who is the actual father of RPG's however (and some of you know HOW I can actually go on and on).

Instead, this is for interests sake, to list who we think is the father of what Genre or game, and perhaps a short reason beside it.

H.G. Wells - Father of modern Tabletop Miniature Games

Charles Roberts - Father of the Modern Wargame (as RPG's are a descendant of sorts from wargaming).

Dave Arneson - Father of Roleplaying Games (had the original campaign before Gygax ever entered the picture, introduced Gygax to RPG's...Gygax codified it into a set of rules).

Gary Gygax - Father of Dungeons and Dragons (or if you see him as the Father of RPG's, maybe Arneson is the Godfather?)

Peter Adkinson - Father of 21st Century D&Ds (as he was over the attainment and organized those who wrote up 3e. I suppose you could claim Jonathan Tweet, Skip Williams or Monte Cook instead).

Ryan Dancey - Father of the 21st Century RPG (I hold him responsible for the OGL and the explosion of Indie games that came out from this...and though it's diminished, I think this jumpstarted a lot of new RPG companies. Many separated from OGL/D20 now, but have even more innovation with their own systems).

Ryan Dancey - Father of OGL (slightly different then his above line...this is directly for all games that are written from the OGL, including those within the retrogaming movement).

Just some big notables I'd say were the father of a specific genre or idea...and it's JUST AN OPINION...just so you know. What are your thoughts and opinions (lists) on who the Father of what is?

 

[Treebore]

I see Gygax as the "father" because it was his efforts, his pushing, that got the game into print for the world to enjoy. If it was all up to Arneson we would probably never know he even existed, let alone have D&D and RPG's in general.

So yes, Arneson may have been a creator of an RPG, but its pretty clear that Gygax is the one who made it all happen in terms of what we all think of as the RPG industry.

So what would have happened if Gygax didn't make TSR happen? We can't say with any certainty, but we do know our history would not be what it is if Gygax didn't get everyone to put up money and do all the boxing and selling from his (Gygax's) basement.

So in my opinion the key contributor and cause of the existence of D&D and the RPG industry as it is today is a direct result of Gygax's vision and efforts. If it had all been left in Arneson's lap, we may not even have D&D today. We can hypothesize, but the facts are we have what we have due to the primary efforts of Gygax. Others definitely contributed, but it was his driving efforts that made it all happen.

 

[Lanefan]

To back it up even one more step:

Col. David Wesely. Father of single-character role-playing as opposed to players controlling one or more units as in a wargame, via his Braunstein game. He taught Arneson how to play; Arneson then went on to refine the concepts further into what we know as RPGs, and Gygax took it from there.

Wesely is at the same time - and from the same game - the father of LARP; as that's essentially what Braunstein is.

Lanefan

 

[GreyLord]

To back it up even one more step:

Col. David Wesely. Father of single-character role-playing as opposed to players controlling one or more units as in a wargame, via his Braunstein game. He taught Arneson how to play; Arneson then went on to refine the concepts further into what we know as RPGs, and Gygax took it from there.

Wesely is at the same time - and from the same game - the father of LARP; as that's essentially what Braunstein is.

Lanefan

Wow, I've never heard of Braunstein, but not I'm going to look him up. Thanks for that information!

 

[Deuce Traveler]

To back it up even one more step:

Col. David Wesely. Father of single-character role-playing as opposed to players controlling one or more units as in a wargame, via his Braunstein game. He taught Arneson how to play; Arneson then went on to refine the concepts further into what we know as RPGs, and Gygax took it from there.

Wesely is at the same time - and from the same game - the father of LARP; as that's essentially what Braunstein is.

Lanefan

So maybe Col Wesely is the grandfather, Gygax the father, and Arneson the mother. Then Gygax and Arneson had a divorce, which lead to an ugly custody battle. I'm not going to even get started at how painful the birth was...

 

[havard]

So in my opinion the key contributor and cause of the existence of D&D and the RPG industry as it is today is a direct result of Gygax's vision and efforts. If it had all been left in Arneson's lap, we may not even have D&D today. We can hypothesize, but the facts are we have what we have due to the primary efforts of Gygax. Others definitely contributed, but it was his driving efforts that made it all happen.

While I agree with you about the significance of Gary's efforts, I think you underestimate the importance of actually coming up with the idea. Both men were neccessary to make it happen. I also think Arneson could have contributed more, had he been met with anything other than hostility from Gary's co-workers.

-Havard

 

[mattcolville]

It's Wesely that had the conceptual breakthrough. Once you have that breakthrough, the idea spreads like wildfire.

The basic conceit, for those who don't know the story, is that come gamenight there's going to be a big City Siege scenario in this war game Wesely and his friends were playing. I believe at this point Wesely is acting as what we would think of as a GM, even though it's purely a wargame.

He knows, he is aware, that city sieges are usually accompanied by lots of spying, enemy agents trying to sneak into the city, poison the water supply, find out what kind of defenses the city has, etc....

It occurs to him that it would be very realistic indeed if the starting conditions of the war game scenario the players ran through were determined by this kind of pre-game spying and sabotage game.

So he gives the players "characters" to play, and gives each an assignment. A goal. I believe it's all written down on a 3x5 card. Vanishingly little information. He imagined it would be like 30 minutes of gameplay, and then on to the siege.

Most of these goals are *purely* gathering information. But he had, in this one moment, taken a huge scimitar and sliced the cord connecting the players to their army, loosing them upon the city with no rules, just characters and goals. And they went INSANE.

They improvised, they schemed, they plotted and he had to furiously invent rules on the spot, roll this, roll that, to determine success or failure.

At the end of the night, he was really broken down. All that work, wasted. They never even played the wargame! What a colossal waste of time, he thought.

Meanwhile, his players spend the next week constantly bugging him. "WHEN ARE WE GOING TO DO IT AGAIN!?"

He invented everything we associate with the core experience of roleplaying that night. Everything else was just classes and levels.

 

[Lanefan]

It's Wesely that had the conceptual breakthrough. Once you have that breakthrough, the idea spreads like wildfire.

The basic conceit, for those who don't know the story, is that come gamenight there's going to be a big City Siege scenario in this war game Wesely and his friends were playing.

One of whom, I believe, was Arneson.

I believe at this point Wesely is acting as what we would think of as a GM, even though it's purely a wargame.

I'm not sure. He told us the story when he ran Braunstein at GenCon '09 but I was functioning on 1 hour sleep and missed/forgot most of the finer details.

He knows, he is aware, that city sieges are usually accompanied by lots of spying, enemy agents trying to sneak into the city, poison the water supply, find out what kind of defenses the city has, etc....

It occurs to him that it would be very realistic indeed if the starting conditions of the war game scenario the players ran through were determined by this kind of pre-game spying and sabotage game.

So he gives the players "characters" to play, and gives each an assignment. A goal. I believe it's all written down on a 3x5 card. Vanishingly little information.

He's expanded it a bit since - the goal(s) now come on a normal piece of paper - but the core is exactly the same; and you're right: you're given barely enough information to go on and have to wing it from there in order to come up with a character to go with the role you've been assigned.

Most of these goals are *purely* gathering information. But he had, in this one moment, taken a huge scimitar and sliced the cord connecting the players to their army, loosing them upon the city with no rules, just characters and goals. And they went INSANE.

They improvised, they schemed, they plotted and he had to furiously invent rules on the spot, roll this, roll that, to determine success or failure.

Not sure if any dice were involved at all. If they were, they've been removed since; what I played was diceless.

And priceless.

Lanefan

 

[Thanael]

Wow, I've never heard of Braunstein, but not I'm going to look him up. Thanks for that information!

Have a link or two then:
David Wesely - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ars ludi » Braunstein: the Roots of Roleplaying Games
ars ludi » Braunstein at GenCon

 

[havard]

It seems to me that Wesely brought a roleplaying element into the War Game Campaign framework. The first Braunstein at least, was part of a Napoleonics Game campaign. As the Braunstein variants continued, the focus shifted more and more from the War Game towards making the roleplaying the center of the game. One of the Braunstein variants that did this was called Blackmoor.

What Arneson did, was to use the Chainmail Rules as a basis, place the game into a medieval fantasy setting and invent the Dungeon Crawl, which he soon after showed to Gary Gygax, before the two of them went on to create D&D.

At which point does the game shift from being a War Game with Roleplaying Elements into becoming a Roleplaying Game?


-Havard