Thoughts on the edition treadmill

[prosfilaes]

As far as the "state of the hobby", I believe we are talking about two different things. Two things that influence eachother, with only one depending upon the other. Those two things are "the Hobby itself", and "the RPG Industry". As long as there is just one person still wanting to play RPG's, then the Hobby is alive and has the potential to bring in new players (though likely to be more difficult), independent of an RPG Industry. I just don't believe it follows that the hobby cannot survive without the industry. However, the Industry is dependent upon the Hobby for continued existence. If the Hobby ceases to exist, the Industry does also.

The industry could still exist; there's still going to be a demand for quaint 20th century memorabilia, and there may be a scholarly audience for reprints (particularly PDF) of old D&D books for cultural study. That's about the level the hobby will be without the industry.

If there is just one person wanting to play RPGs, the hobby is not alive. There has to be enough people who can get together to at least play the game, to say the hobby is in any way alive. And at that level, the industry can survive without the hobby. It's not a terribly interesting level. As I've said before, if there's not new dice and new books, there's not going to be new players. Death is a vicious cycle, and not many people will get involved in a hobby that looks like it's dying.

Industry icons are stable points in the RPG society. If we didn't have D&D, GURPS, Rifts, Call of Cthulhu, the Hero system, and a few other games, then we'd lose people who felt they couldn't keep up and that everything felt strange and new. What amounts to the loss of the WoD hurts roleplaying, because it means that WoD players will never check out how WoD is doing now and think to rejoin the hobby. All the used copies and PDF reprints in the world won't stop that.

It may be the winds and storm surge that do the damage in a hurricane, but if you hear that a hurricane with a central pressure of 880 mbar is coming for your coastal town, go hide inland for a while, and take anything you value with you. The industry is similar; it may not be what matters, but if they stop selling D&D, the hobby is ailing badly. If it starts to get hard to find dice, then the hobby is really in trouble.

 

[Hussar]

On WW getting out of the biz.

Yeah, it sucks, but, the industry has seen lots of the bigger guys come and go over the years. I mean, FASA was a pretty big RPG concern once upon a time. Lots of pretty decent games, some very big name media tie ins (Star Trek for one). But, unfortunately, FASA is long gone.

WW falls out and Paizo comes up to the plate. Ten, fifteen years down the road, I'm sure someone else will be on the upswing. It's just that nature of the business. Some companies get out and others get in. If there's money to be made, someone's going to try to make it.

As far as the hobby existing without the industry? I dunno. Losing things like Gen Con, major websites like EN World and WOTC's boards (because they're a part of the industry too), and whatnot is certainly not going to help the hobby.

Or, like it or not, which brings in more new players - someone trying to get players for a twenty year old game with books that are held together with duct tape, or seeing large advertising spreads in magazines, hobby shops and whatnot?

 

[El Mahdi]

The industry could still exist; there's still going to be a demand for quaint 20th century memorabilia, and there may be a scholarly audience for reprints (particularly PDF) of old D&D books for cultural study...

Good point.

If there is just one person wanting to play RPGs, the hobby is not alive. There has to be enough people who can get together to at least play the game...

I don't know about you, but I can play with myself just fine...

Wait. That didn't come out right...

 

[Mercurius]

I'm not sure about the percentages... and I hate to say it... but I think profit motive has been the key factor in the edition treadmill since the beginning. Improving the quality of the game (evolution) has always been a distant second. Let's not forget that there were lawsuits and ownership struggles over D&D as far back as the 70's. Half-baked rule expansions go back to at least the 1e Unearthed Arcana.

D&D is first and foremost a brand and a product. I think that there have been people in charge over the years that have genuinely cared about the game (and some that haven't). However, I think all of them, even Gygax, put the business first.

I think it is impossible to quantify this question with percentages because the two are simply too entwined to say, "What percent of Bill Slaviscek's motive was profit oriented vs. design oriented?" Slaviscek and the other designers at WotC are certainly pushed (at least one square ) to generate profit, but their design considerations themselves are largely to make the game the best--and most enjoyable--that they believe it can be.

Do they take into account things that might impact revenue and does this effect design? Certainly. But when the designers at WotC sit down, they aren't simply thinking "Let's figure out a way to scam the masses out of more dough!" Nor is it a 90/10% sort of split. It is both, in some relationship that is impossible to tease apart and quantify.

In an ideal world the need for sales should help design evolution by pushing it forward and providing opportunities for innovation. A revision (2E, 3.5, Essentials) provides the opportunity to fine-tune the system, fix errata and major issues, and integrate customer feedback all at the same time as selling more books. A major system reboot (3E or 4E) gives the opportunity to do all of the above and more, to go in a different direction and try something radical, and this is in turn can and will be revised.

And so it goes. "Edition treadmill" is a bit of a pejorative term and I understand why it annoys people, especially when the game goes in a different direction than what one would have liked. But given the nature of the game Dungeons & Dragons, it is not only a necessity but ultimately a desirable thing. What many seem to forget is that every previous edition remains intact, ready to be played--and with plenty of material to last a lifetime of gaming. 3.5 players can enjoy literally 100 hardcover books and dozens of adventures and other supplements--and that is just the output from WotC! If you add in third-party publishers and Pathfinder, there might be close to a thousand 3.5/d20 products available.

The same is true with every edition of D&D (although to a lesser extent in terms of quantity of product). The fans themselves keep every edition alive to some degree, and will keep every edition alive through their enjoyment and love of the game. So let the "treadmill" move on and, at the very least, watch the ride with curiosity even if you're perfectly happy with your dusty and worn AD&D tomes. Maybe all of us old-timers--which could loosely be defined as any D&D player that started playing before 3E game out--will be rocking on our porches, grumbling as the new-fangled purely virtual 7E D&D comes out. 'Tis the way of things.

 

[Umbran]

Impact? Absolutely

Dependence? I don't believe so.

Most of us recognize that words get used multiple ways. But, if the pedantry of definition means that much to you, fine. Have it your way.

 

[SkidAce]

Also, note that not everyone sees D&D editions as a treadmill. For no small number of people, 4e is better - completely better in almost every way - over previous editions. For many players it isn't a treadmill, it's a line of improvements. They see x edition as being better then the last one.

Certainly, if and when 5e comes out, we'll see the same thing. People will claim it's terrible and that 4e is True D&D. Others will leap atop 5e and proclaim it the best game they've ever played. And that second group will assuredly not see things as an "edition treadmill" but, just as the 4e crowd did then, they will see it as the newest and best edition of the game.

If someone is a fan of 3e, then the treadmill began at 4e. If they're a fan of 2e, then the treadmill began at 3e. But it curiously never seems to have started at or before the edition the person making the claim loves the most.

I like all editions so far. But that treadmill train started a long time ago when they started reprintng classes they already had. IMO.

 

[jmucchiello]

As far as the hobby existing without the industry? I dunno. Losing things like Gen Con

Why would Gen Con go away? Gen Con started with a group of wargamers playing 10 hour board games together over a weekend of sleeplessness. Those wargamers still show up to Gen Con. The board game and CCG rooms at Gen Con are always well attended. If all the RPG events disappeared, sure it would be smaller but it would still be a well-attended gaming convention.

major websites like EN World and WOTC's boards (because they're a part of the industry too), and whatnot is certainly not going to help the hobby.

Does that include dragonfoot, a website devoted to games 20-30 years out of print? Does that in rpggeek.com which is part of boardgamegeek.com (and videogamegeek.com)? Why are these places going to disappear?

Or, like it or not, which brings in more new players - someone trying to get players for a twenty year old game with books that are held together with duct tape, or seeing large advertising spreads in magazines, hobby shops and whatnot?

Poll and poll here shows that most people started playing D&D without knowing what it was or seeing an advertisement. They learned about it though word of mouth. Most people join the hobby and play for months without ever buying the books. The "Industry" has never been good at drawing people in.

 

[jmucchiello]

If NO edition is needed, then how could they sell it in the first place? The rules are part of the game, there are more fun and less fun sets of rules, and I find it absurd to think that we can dismiss the concept that companies that put out a new set of rules are doing so to produce a better product out of hand.

Ask a five-year old what the rules are to playing "let's pretend". Groups of children play role-playing games ("Okay, I'm Superman" "And I'm Batman"...) all the time without ever consulting a rulebook. If they got into an argument and an adult they both trust adjudicates the argument they will continue playing with the ad hoc ruling in play. It is the nature of humankind to be able to play in this manner. Older children (and that includes all of us) might prefer a written framework for gaming but it is entirely possible to play without rules. In my first post, I said this was the dirty secret of the RPG industry. This is what I meant. Look at a game like RISUS. It is 6 pages long. The rules don't say it explicitly but just about everything in RISUS could be GM fiat. And yet people play that game all the time and have fun. It's just a roll-over mechanic. Nothing more.

In the old days, only the DM might own all the books and certainly most people at the table did not know all the rules. And they had fun.

There are groups of people who buy one rulebook once in their lifetime and never buy another. They play with an insular group of friends. None of them log on to ENWorld or wizards.com or rpg.net or the forge or rpgg or DDI. Yet every week they get together and play. The industry is already dead from their point of view because they don't need it. If they've been together long enough I'm sure their game is also so house ruled that they don't even use that one book they bought long ago.

I'm not talking about the fringe of the hobby. That case is probably the core of the hobby. The real fringe of the hobby is people like us who post on message boards and fret about the state of the industry. The industry exists for the fanatics of the hobby.

 

[amerigoV]

There are groups of people who buy one rulebook once in their lifetime and never buy another. They play with an insular group of friends. None of them log on to ENWorld or wizards.com or rpg.net or the forge or rpgg or DDI. Yet every week they get together and play.

And they a probably a much happier gamer than the folks around here.

 

[Hussar]

Why would Gen Con go away? Gen Con started with a group of wargamers playing 10 hour board games together over a weekend of sleeplessness. Those wargamers still show up to Gen Con. The board game and CCG rooms at Gen Con are always well attended. If all the RPG events disappeared, sure it would be smaller but it would still be a well-attended gaming convention.

Does that include dragonfoot, a website devoted to games 20-30 years out of print? Does that in rpggeek.com which is part of boardgamegeek.com (and videogamegeek.com)? Why are these places going to disappear?


Poll and poll here shows that most people started playing D&D without knowing what it was or seeing an advertisement. They learned about it though word of mouth. Most people join the hobby and play for months without ever buying the books. The "Industry" has never been good at drawing people in.

Sorry, I was including things like Gen Con in the "industry". It's a major marketing effort in order to bring visiblity to gaming. Why wouldn't it be included in "the industry"? People are getting paid to do it. It's not an amateur effort.

I'm not familiar enough with Dragonsfoot, but En World stays in business through subscriptions that require new material for subscribers. They also make some money selling gaming goodies as well. Why would En World not be considered part of the industry?

What happens to websites that are not part of the industry? Ask PlanetAD&D.