D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 - Keep Physical stats while Shapechanged?

[tabaz]

Hello there EN World,

I have a question regarding the Shapechange and Polymorph spells. To put it quite simply, I'm searching for a non-cheesy/non-munchkiny method to retain my physical ability scores while under the effects of either of the aforementioned spells.

Any input would be greatly appreciated, thank you!

 

[Dandu]

I have a question regarding the Shapechange and Polymorph spells. To put it quite simply, I'm searching for a non-cheesy/non-munchkiny method to retain my physical ability scores while under the effects of either of the aforementioned spells.

You're using Shapechange and Polymorph, and still concerned about using too much cheese?

 

[jefgorbach]

shapechange/polymorph change your physical form and thus your physical stats.
perhaps your better alt/n would be a simple illusion giving the appearance of whatever instead??

 

[Jacob]

I think what you're looking for is the Change Shape special ability. You keep your stats and other natural bonuses (natural armor) while in any form the power allows. Of course, there is no spell to duplicate this (that I know of). But if this is for a monster for the PCs to face, just tack on the ability. You're the DM after all.

 

[Thanael]

Simple, play Pathfinder: Alter Self, Polymorph, Shapechange

 

[athos]

Are you the DM or the player? I think players' tend to prefer the bonuses they get when wild shaping/polymorphing etc. to their physical attributes. A lot of players tend to make their attributes low on the physical stats when they plan on being in another shape for much of the game.

As a DM, this is an area of abuse that I hate, especially when a real min/maxer gets ahold of it (just kill yourself if you allow lords of madness for druids). I have tried a couple of things, one is that I required the player to keep his own constitution score, and let them get only the dex and str of the new form. My reasoning for this is that if he is a sickly druid, he is a sickly bear or whatever. I get complaints that this nerfs druids too much, but for me as a DM, I am ok with that, they should be tending their groves and not out killing things. More of a compromise that one of my players came up with is if the PC has an 8 con for instance, subtract 2 from the con of the shape, to me this is still not a good solution. These spells are really open to abuse, my personal preference is to nerf them, but if the encounters are using them against the players as much as the players are using them against the monsters, then hey, maybe they will work for you. To me though, that kind of escalation ruins a game.

Best of luck,

Athos

 

[Dandu]

I have tried a couple of things, one is that I required the player to keep his own constitution score, and let them get only the dex and str of the new form. My reasoning for this is that if he is a sickly druid, he is a sickly bear or whatever.

OPTOH, a Druid with Con 18 transforming into a bear with Con 14...


You know that by the rules, your HP stays the same so only your fort save really changes. (And, if you have things like the Rage ability somehow, duration for Rage.) This makes your proposed change unnecessary.

 

[athos]

OPTOH, a Druid with Con 18 transforming into a bear with Con 14...


You know that by the rules, your HP stays the same so only your fort save really changes. (And, if you have things like the Rage ability somehow, duration for Rage.) This makes your proposed change unnecessary.

I am not stating any proposed changes, please don't put words in my mouth, just letting them know how I do it. And, if I remember correctly, and I don't have the books handy to verify, the constitution change from a spell like bear's endurance will up the hp based on the new form and new form's con.

This is from the faq, Official D&D Game Rule FAQ

If a druid puts his ability points in constitution instead of wisdom, power to him, I have just never seen it, I typically get players online that come in with constitutions of 6 or 8.

If druids only shapechange into animals, this isn't much of a problem and I don't mind them in my campaigns... its when they wild shape to aberrations, magical beasts, and other creatures that I think abuses start to happen. A mage polymorphing his anemic hafling cohort into a robust troll is another situation I try to avoid in my games, which is even harder to stop if you let it happen once.

If you play all the time and never DM, you might never see the abuses of the shape changing spells. But, when you DM online a lot like I do, you tend to get a lot of players that are just itching to play something they have read as broken. As a DM, you have the choice to either nerf these broken things or to just simply forbid them, if you do not want a game that breaks down into a series of cheese escalations with the party.

 

[Dandu]

I am not stating any proposed changes, please don't put words in my mouth, just letting them know how I do it.

If you are running things differently, you're changing the rules.

And, if I remember correctly, and I don't have the books handy to verify, the constitution change from a spell like bear's endurance will up the hp based on the new form and new form's con.

This is from the faq, Official D&D Game Rule FAQ

Since the FAQ is not RAW, you will forgive me if I cite RAW in this instance.

Wild Shape (Su)

At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here.

Under Alternate Form, it says

The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.

 

[athos]

If you are running things differently, you're changing the rules.

OMG !!!!

A DM changing the rules? Quick call the rules police and have him tried by the rules lawyers and have him thrown in the rules jail !!!

I guess I am not sure why you even care how or why I change my game, since I definitely don't have you as a player in any of them.

Good DMs adjust the rules as needed for their games, if that makes you upset, then don't play in their games.

The post asked how to use changing shape in a less cheesy manner, I told him what worked for me. I didn't say that you or he, or anyone else had to follow suit.