The Father Of...

[carmachu]

I'm not sure who Anderson is (the famous brothers Thomas & Gerald, perhaps?) but in that particular case, yes EGG did indeed have so many other gaming interests ongoing from WW2 through Diplomacy and Space Gaming that he could quite easily have spent all his time on those.

Arneson

Sorry, that should read Arneson. Mispelling there.

And yet none of those gaming interests would have lead to D&D.

Given his wide background and involvement there's a chance he might've hit on "RPGs" (mid-late 1970s definition) independently, most obviously in 1970 with his own multi-scale game, but that never came to full fruition; and the conceptual efforts of his wargaming equivalent of the SCA didn't get there in its own right.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda.....yet none of those other ideas were either explored, nor used.

Without each other, neither would have gotten D&D to where it went.

 

[harami2000]

Without each other, neither would have gotten D&D to where it went.

Correct. I'm agreeing with you.

Neither, however, did it require Arneson to get to "RPGs" by a 2010 definition (obviously the first wouldn't have been "D&D" without EGG, even had Arneson and/or Snider "gone it alone").

 

[JohnRTroy]

I don't dismiss the "idea" creation, but there's a lot to be said between thinking of an idea and implementing it. After all, people have had the idea of flying cars for decades, but nobody's actually created the darn thing. So that's why I don't care so much about Wesley's idea, because the idea is not the easy part, and there's a lot of parallel thought that I'm sure can come up.

I think people looking for the creator dismiss all the contributions Gygax made and IMO widely deserved.

1) Gygax was a pretty well-established writer before he co-created D&D.

2) Gygax was the one who formed GenCon, the LGTSA, etc. Without that community, there would not have been the sharing of the ideas that would have lead to the RPG.

3) Gygax formed Chainmail, the rules that influenced the others.

4) Gygax was the one who actually gave up his day job to do this. Arneson didn't until after it took off. People need to remember that it was a pretty decent sacrifice for Gary to bet the farm on something that might have only satisfied a niche at the time, something Arneson didn't want to do. It was he with Don Kaye who first did this.

5) From what I've gathered, Gary had the writing discipline that Arneson and others didn't. Just take a look at Gary's record of writing vs. Arneson. Even the detractors who call Gary a "thief" tend not to look at the sum of Gygax's output over the course of his live vs. Arneson. In fact, in a few interviews on the web, Arneson admits Gary's the more prolific writer. Compare the amount Gary's written and contributed to the whole D&D mythos vs. Dave. And it certainly wasn't just because Gygax had the TSR company backing him, since Dangerous Journeys and Lejendary Adventures prove that wrong.

So, while I honestly think that both men deserve credit, I don't think that it was a 50-50 thing either, and I think Gygax might have done something similar because of his drive--the odds are Gygax might have created something akin to an RPG and published it--but I have doubts that Arneson alone could have done it. Gygax was a designer but he was also an entrepreneur and a charismatic sort and all was key for this to work.

And while we can debate is there would be an RPG without this--I'm sure many elements would have been a LOT different because different creators have different influences.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't dismiss the "idea" creation, but there's a lot to be said between thinking of an idea and implementing it. After all, people have had the idea of flying cars for decades, but nobody's actually created the darn thing. So that's why I don't care so much about Wesley's idea, because the idea is not the easy part, and there's a lot of parallel thought that I'm sure can come up.

I think people looking for the creator dismiss all the contributions Gygax made and IMO widely deserved.

I don't deny Gygax's role at all. He brought the whole thing together and got it out there; that's pretty much common knowledge.

But where did all the parts come from, is the more interesting question; and that's where Arneson, Wesely, etc. come in.

Lanefan

 

[MerricB]

Is Gary the midwife of D&D?

Cheers!

 

[GreyLord]

Yeah, you can't leave Wesley out, he's the guy who took the first step towards creating the RPG.



D&D itself? Clearly in the mid-70s between the publication of the three white books and the first Basic set and the AD&D books. You've got D&D groups that are using the 3 books, maybe even copies of them, but probably not Chainmail, and likely certainaly not the other wargaming suppliments recommended for D&D. So, they're making up their own rules and creating their own structure to the game which has little to do with wargaming at all. At the end of the 70's, with Basic and AD&D in place, D&D starts becoming its own game.

If you're talking about RPGs in general, then take the above and add other early RPGs like Empire of the Petal Throne, and whatever else was being published from 1975 to 1977-1979.

Also depends on where you want to place Judge's Guild, Arduin, etc.

I come more from the Wargaming background which Gygax was a part of. Wargaming wasn't so much a part of storytelling originally, but training. From that training they came up with Kriegsspiel, a wargame to train Prussian officers. It made many interested in the facets of wargaming...

The other side of the coin was what little boys have always done, played toy soldiers. Wells merely formulated a set of rules for grown men to be able to do similar things, but on a simulation of actual wars.

Charles Roberts combined these ideas into the modern wargame and from that we can follow a direct line to the Chainmail rules, a natural evolution of the wargame idea.

When I first looked at the three booklets of D&D the first glance was more like puzzlement over the integration of the combat rules and levelling. It was nothing like what you see now...or at least very different. The roll dice against AC (or that we use a D20 to roll against AC, saves etc these days...that idea) that we used was actually a secondary option in the back.

I feel that many people really didn't know what to do with the chainmail rules that originally were the first combat system (and perhaps put in there to try to push that system (chainmail) itself instead of the D20 (using a D20:which I feel was probably MORE akin to the naval rules and the combat system Arneson had in mind). I'm not certain, as I never knew Arneson really, but from how it is described in Arneson's original system...it sounds like that would hold true...though Gygax definitely was the one to polish it up (the AC and D20 rules that Arneson had in mind instead of chainmail) and actually make it codified and understandable.

When were the actual rules where what we know as D&D today started to come to light and be codified into a definite shape which we would recognize? I think was Greyhawk.

In fact, prior to Greyhawk, I'd say Chainmail was a Wargame with some RPG elements....D&D was a Tactical wargame RPG like game, that had both wargamers and nascent Roleplayers starting it...but still in that hazy area...it was the GREYHAWK supplement that made the divide. It was Greyhawk that set the standard, that said, this is what D&D will be. This is what D&D is. This folks...this is roleplaying.

And from that the next generation of D&D, AD&D, and everything else came along...

And Greyhawk WAS Gary's campaign.

I think I'd still put Arneson as the father of Roleplaying however...Gygax definitely was the father of D&D. I can see most would also put him (Gygax) as the father of Roleplaying as well.

From what I understand, Arneson was shopping around with the system however...Gygax was just the one who happened to actually listen to him.

 

[jmucchiello]

I don't dismiss the "idea" creation, but there's a lot to be said between thinking of an idea and implementing it. After all, people have had the idea of flying cars for decades, but nobody's actually created the darn thing. So that's why I don't care so much about Wesley's idea, because the idea is not the easy part, and there's a lot of parallel thought that I'm sure can come up.
...
And while we can debate is there would be an RPG without this--I'm sure many elements would have been a LOT different because different creators have different influences.

Oh, there would have been RPGs. They were coming. Ironically they would have come FROM computers if Gygax never came up with D&D. The time for fantasy role-playing was probably inevitable after the late 60s resurgence of Tolkien.

Parallel development in computers took place in 1975 when Will Crowther wrote the Colossal Cave Adventure text adventure game. It was later extended by Don Woods who added the elves and trolls based on his love Tolkien. Crowther most likely had no exposure to D&D/Chainmail when he wrote the code. Woods may have known about D&D so I can't be sure if his additions to ADVENT were independent of D&D. (For those unfamiliar with Colossal Cave, it was the game the Zork trilogy was based on.)

 

[Sorrowdusk]

Your assumption is that Roleplaying grew out of storytelling, whereas its true origins can just as much be traced back to war gaming, if not more so.

Havard

But what's that mean for 4e?

Could it be seen as an attempt to return to more wargaming roots?

 

[CharlesRyan]

I come more from the Wargaming background which Gygax was a part of. . .

Interesting stuff, GreyLord. It sounds like you were there. Is that accurate? And sorry if this is something I should know, but do you mind clarifying who you are?

Thanks; I find first-hand accounts of the early days fascinating.

 

[GreyLord]

Interesting stuff, GreyLord. It sounds like you were there. Is that accurate? And sorry if this is something I should know, but do you mind clarifying who you are?

Thanks; I find first-hand accounts of the early days fascinating.

I wasn't with the original Arneson, Gygax bunch if that's what you were wondering, as then I'd actually know Arneson!

Gygax was at first in passing, and then simply mutual interests. I'm not one of the big writers that was noted with acclaim. I'm simply one of hundreds that liked Wargames, and then liked RPG's, and got into other business interests and investments.

While Gygax and others were building the games and worlds we liked and played at night and on weekends...we were building less useful things out of stocks, bonds, and money. Boring stuff like that.

You'd be bored to death of my day to day life...

my REAL (well some would say PC in an RPG) job is as a Ranger who is sometimes a Bard!