5E - How would you structure it?

[Mercurius]

We haven't had a good 5E thread for, I dunno, a week or two and I'm starting to get withdrawal symptoms so I thought I'd get one going. But I want to take a (somewhat) different approach--rather than discuss how you'd like to see the rules done, what campaign settings, and all of the "internal" details, I want to focus on the "external" structural form, that is how the game is presented, formatted, published, etc; this could include numerous factors like consumer feedback and the relationship and communication between designers and purchasers, etc.

Here's a hypothetical premise to give the question context: Let's say 4E collapses in on itself in the next couple years, with decreased sales leading to downsizing and trickling products. Character Builder never fully irons out its bugs, DDI is mildly successful but not as much as WotC had hoped, ditto with Essentials, and the splat books peter out to re-hashes of latter-day 3.5 material with only the occasional fresh idea. Sometime in late 2011 or early 2012 WotC sees the writing on the wall and, amazingly, recognizes they don't as much need a new edition of D&D following the same old method, but an entirely new approach to D&D - both in how the game is structured, but also their relationship with the fan base.

Which is where you come in. Come late 2012, due to your fabulous participation and astute observations on EN World and perhaps a survey WotC sends out, you are selected to be part of a group of one hundred fans to brainstorm ideas for 5E, with an ETA of 2014 (barring apocalypse on Dec 21, 2012, of course).

How do you structure the game? Do you focus on a re-vamped DDI with only print-on-demand paper releases? Or do you take a similar trifecta approach of the PHB-DMG-MM with endless splats, but with some slight changes? What are those changes?

Again, let's keep rules discussion out of this except as it may pertain to the structure of the game and, perhaps, ways in which you could draw back pre-4E fans.

Have at it!

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

Essentials is close to getting it right.

A new DM Kit box comes out every year in early summer:

• New RC with all rules updates and editing fixes from the past year applied,
• New POL adventure with new rare and wondrous magic items,
• Poster maps for the adventure,
• DM aid (think the DM rewards from Essentials: generic tokens, ongoing damage cards, condition cards, an updated DM screen if called for, dungeon tiles, etc.)
• $20-$25

A new setting box comes out every year in the fall:

• Campaign/DM book with monsters.
• Adventure
• Tokens for new monsters
• Poster maps and/or dungeon tiles
• $40

The Heroes books should come in a box. The should come out two or three times a year, one released same day/date and theme as the setting box.
The box should contain:

• Hot... book with new race/class rules
• Player's guide/mini-RC for the new setting for fall release
• Mini-RC and player aid (d20 with that box's icon on the 20, condition markers, character folios, etc.) for other releases
• Tokens with a male and female version of each all races combined with each class that comes in the book (excluding certain race/class/gender combos sucks; my daughter loves her female Dwarf Wizard from the red box),
• Choose–your-own-adventure in the style of the red box that uses the new races and classes to properly introduce their flavor (PHB3 could really have used this; shard people and plant people?), and
• Power cards (the thin, red-box style ones)
• $20-$25

Setting add-on mini boxes come out a couple times a year:

• Slim campaign guide/rules update/monster book formatted like red box DM book,
• New adventure,
• New poster map and/or dungeon tiles for adventure, and
• Tokens for new monsters
• $20-$25

June (early): New DM Kit
July: no releases
August (mid-late): Premium Release (DM-focused, like the Orcus fig or Beholder set)
September: New Setting Box, New Setting-Themed Player Box
October: Setting Update
November: Premium Release (Player-focused, non-random PC minis in particular, eventually filling in every race/class/gender hole)
December (early): New Player Box
January: no releases
February: no releases
March (early): New Player Box
April: Setting Update
May: Starter Game update and Special Product (Three-Dragon Ante, Inn-Fighting, Premium Dice w/ game that uses all six dice, etc.)

If that release schedule looks familiar, it's because it is based off the release schedule for Magic: the Gathering products that has been so successful over the past 2-3 years. The guys on the Magic side of WotC are really excelling and D&D could really stand to take some lessons, IMHO.

A final relatively minor note: The graphic design of Essentials's boxes is almost great. Unfortunately the logo colors and art are too aggressive. I think tweaking them to be more appealing to women would help expand the market. In my experience, women **love** D&D once they start playing, but it's hard to get them into the first game. Maybe get someone from P&G to help keep the identity while being more gender-neutral.

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

To be clear, I don't think a "5E" is necessary. Not only that, I don't think we'll ever see another release of D&D labeled with an edition.

They've done a brilliant thing by taking the "4th Edition" off "Essentials".

IMHO, the core of 4th Edition is damn near the apotheosis of D&D. With this base they have plenty of design space to do to D&D what WotC has been doing to Magic for 15+ years. The pre-Essentials 4E stuff will be like early magic sets: still compatible, played by many though not most.

While the course has been plotted for 2011, I can see something like what I've outlined above coming into play in 2012.

 

[DEFCON 1]

By the time 2014 comes around... e-readers, tablets, and smartphones will be so commonplace that EVERYTHING to do with 5E will be computer web-based. Every book will be electronic, every part of each book will be linked together with all other electronic programs via the massive compendium database, and we would see very little actual print medium. Probably only maps & tokens, along with the occasional rules-compendium. However, because the game will be treated like a computer program, and that "game patches" (ie errata) will come fast and furious... having actual printed material will be virtually useless and thus barely done. Especially since you'll have everything on your e-readers at the table when you play.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Mercurius!

I think what I would do with 5E, in terms of format, is bring back the OD&D (coloured) boxed set approach that Essentials is basically adopting.

Box #1: D&D Levels 1-10
Box #2: D&D Levels 11-20
Box #3: D&D Levels 21-30

Each boxed set would have the DM's guidebook, Player's Handbook, (brief) monster book, (brief) adventure book with 10 adventures, (brief) setting book, power cards, item cards and so forth.

Each boxed set would then have five companion boxed sets, with 10 deluxe painted miniature sets too.

1) Monster Book with tokens.

2) Setting book which also doubles as an Area book (for key locations). In here would be lots of possible NPCs you can drop in. This book comes with ten (double-sided) cardboard location sheets for each major (generic) location in the book (three floors of thieves guild, sewers, wine cellar, tavern/inn, forest, graveyard, necropolis, river crossing, caves, wizards tower etc.). The reason they are cardboard is so they can be stacked with some other bits of card and you can have multiple levels (to a structure) in play simultaneously. This way you could have mezzanine's, ramparts and so forth..

3) Mega-Adventure book with a twist...what if we take 4-5 classic D&D modules and rework them, linking them into a campaign:

Against the Cult of the Reptile God leading to Scourge of the Slave Lords taking us to The Ghost Tower of Inverness, segue-ing into the Temple of Elemental Evil which leads you to take an Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (thats just off the top of my head). This book comes with a 'Ravenloft Boxed Set' style card punch out rooms (which fit like a jigsaw) for each major location. So you can build them like the scenario outlines or make up your own areas.

4) Expanded Player's Handbook Expansion (tripling the number of options in the boxed set). Lots more power cards.

5) Expanded DM's Guidebook. More magic items and decks of item cards, traps and hazards.

6-15) Deluxe Monster (Painted) Miniature sets. Each set gets you all the monsters in the book covering a given 2-level span. With perhaps multiples of three for some of the most generic monsters (bandits, goblins, orcs etc.).

As well as covering the 10 levels of monsters in the boxed set/monster manual, the other five sets include the monsters/npcs from the Mega-Adventure.

Same formula for the Paragon Tier.

However...

...the major addition to the rules would be the ability to use armies in combat.

...the Setting boxed set for the Paragon tier would cover Underdark, Aquatic, Desert, Arctic and Volcanic regions/areas. As well as updated material for the campaign world. Discussing multiple countries (of Greyhawk).

...the Adventure boxed set would be something like Isle of Dread, White Plume Mountain, Vault of the Drow, Castle Amber, Tomb of Horrors.

Same formula for the Epic Tier.

However...

...the main addition to the rules would be enormous boss monsters and their use as terrain.

...the Setting boxed set would delve into the planes: Far Realm, Elemental Chaos, Astral, Shadowfell and Feywild.

...the Adventure boxed set for the Epic Tier might be The Gates of Firestorm Peak, Dead Gods, Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun and some others we may have to make up at this stage.

...actually thinking that it might be nice just to throw in one brand new adventure to each of the tiers Mega-adventures, artehr than relying on remade/re-envisioned classics.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

The next edition or incarantion will be technology-driven. A clear divide between fluff and crunch will take place, with all the crunch handled by The Computer.

The fluffy stuff - things like settings, tips, and educational material for players and DMs - will stil be printed, but in smaller books, say 96 instead of 352 pages.

The entry level products will be boxed sets with lots of stuff and 30 days access to the computerized heaven.

D&D will become more of a service. You pay for your access to the material and tools, but not with a flat subscription fee like today, but with free basic access and lots of additional services you can buy piecemeal.

Want to run a specific adventure? Decide whether you just want the text (PDF) or add PoD battelmaps and/or tokens or battlemaps and graphics for use on a TV set or beamer or do you want to run the thing on the VTT.

The next D&D relies on myriads of choices and possibilites for the customer, allowing her to buy exactly her game. The other pillar will be "educational" products one can get/buy everywhere and covering the stuff which can't be written as rules.

 

[Diamond Cross]

We need to stop harping on 5e period. It's getting really annoying.

 

[delericho]

Here's a hypothetical premise to give the question context: Let's say 4E collapses in on itself in the next couple years, with decreased sales leading to downsizing and trickling products. Character Builder never fully irons out its bugs, DDI is mildly successful but not as much as WotC had hoped, ditto with Essentials, and the splat books peter out to re-hashes of latter-day 3.5 material with only the occasional fresh idea.

If this happens, then there won't be a 5e - D&D will be cancelled. If we want D&D to continue, we need 4e to be a success.

Still...

How do you structure the game? Do you focus on a re-vamped DDI with only print-on-demand paper releases? Or do you take a similar trifecta approach of the PHB-DMG-MM with endless splats, but with some slight changes? What are those changes?

Is my goal "make the best game" or "make money"?

To "make the best game", I would go for a six book release containing absolutely everything that is ever published for (rules of) the game. Essentially, a deluxe PHB (no magic items or spells), a deluxe DMG (no magic items), a Grimoire (all the spells), a Tome of Treasures (all the magic items), and two giant Monster Manuals.

Support materials would include campaign settings and adventures.

If my goal is "make money", then we take a lead from Gamma World - character powers are on cards, with a Starter Deck in the main boxed set, and the collectable expansions replacing "Arcane Power" and the like. The DDI will allow people to get new 'cards' also via micro-transactions.

The same would apply to DM materials also: a base MM containing loads of cards and counters, plus collectable expansions available replacing "Monster Manual X".

The DDI would continue, but with all materials being available on a web-only basis, and only available to ongoing customers. No subscribing every six months to get the updates and download everything.

(Actually, I might even be tempted to not publish the core rules in print, but instead make these only available through the DDI. That way, if you want to play, you have to pay us the monthly fee. However, I don't think we're yet at the point where the fanbase would accept that, though we might not be too far from it...)

 

[Keefe the Thief]

A beginners box.
Three softcovers that add in to that.
Register those online and get a discount for the "real" 5e.
Which is online only, with apps for Android/Win7/etc.

Die, paper, die.

 

[Hungry Like The Wolf]

By the time 2014 comes around... e-readers, tablets, and smartphones will be so commonplace that EVERYTHING to do with 5E will be computer web-based. Every book will be electronic, every part of each book will be linked together with all other electronic programs via the massive compendium database, and we would see very little actual print medium.

This would be a very bitter-sweet moment.