Making superhero gear make sense (mostly Marvel related)

[Jon_Dahl]

Of the posts so far, I feel that Remathilis best summarizes the real issues here. Sure, it's very nice to pull me as a GM to that right direction of awesomeness and "it is like this, because it's cool", but we have to also think about the counterparts here, sitting at the other side of table...

Some of my players are even more hardcore realism fans than me, and I think they'll try to arm and equip themselves best of their ability. I can imagine that as soon as someone gets wounded, dragonskin and interceptor body armor are raised as issues on the table.

And that when the genre starts to cough...
...I can't tell them that "no, you can't buy this" without making it a complete railroad or whatnot.
...The genre will be distorted, with X-men and the rest of the guys running with barely nada and the players themself going para-military style with a complete different genre.
...It will effect the bad guys also, who will respond to such arms race.

So I feel that despite the best of my intentions, I think that some logical thinking from players' part and even half-modest knowledge of arms, armor and equipment can make the tone of the game somewhat different.

But does it matter? I don't know, maybe not. All I know is that I will try to pass the "awesome thights"-idea on to my players, but I can see no way I can argue back to the heavy-duty special forces style.

 

[billd91]

I think its a flaw in RPGs in general.

I recall running a "Beyond the Supernatural" one-shot on a college campus where the PCs were invited to a Frat party that just-so-happened to also be a giant Satanic orgy. Immediately, these normal, everyday college kids whip out their handguns and start firing! I kindly remind them that firearms are prohibited on college campuses, which turns into a logic-defying twist of reality that allowed them to secretly pack enough heat to take down a rhino (not to mention a demonic entity) while also managing to have flashlights, medical kits, extra ammo, and a bowie knife on stashed on various persons.

I'm certain this mentality comes from the "11-foot pole" era of D&D, where people load their charsheets up with extra junk (mundane and magical) to have the answer to nearly any problem they could possibly encounter. It fails miserably when taken out of the Dungeon mentality however. Few, if any people carry more than a wallet, keys, cellphone, make-up, pen, chapstick or perhaps a pocket-knife (and that's becoming increasingly uncommon).

It's not just the 11-foot pole mentality, it's also the combat focused mentality that pervades the way a lot of people play RPGs. Your example provides an excellent case for that. Who goes to a frat party loaded down with weaponry and the stuff needed to tend to wounds? Nobody sane. But because many people approach RPGs like they're playing a game about killing things and taking their stuff, that's what you get from superheroes, college students, Jedi, computer hackers, and even actors in It Came from the Late Late Late Show (though at least there it's funny).

I don't think that's a problem inherent to RPGs, per se. I think it's a problem with the players who never get beyond the pulp fantasy mode that inspired D&D. If you can't get out of that mode when getting into a different game (without the same inspirations), it doesn't matter too much what the RPG does, the players will get the action to conform to their desires. Knights of the Dinner Table also provided some excellent examples of this over the years, particularly when the guys added weapon and combat rules to a racing game along the lines of Formula De.

 

[WizarDru]

I'm just trying to adjust my mindset as a GM from d20 Modern to Superhero genre. It's hard, so please give me a hand here
I mean... "Hey Jean Grey, please hand me a flashlight!"
"Huh?"

Many good points are made above and I won't add to them. Assuming you're looking to rationalize here, there are several approaches.

Approach 1: Go the Marvel Knights/Wildcards route, where crime is on the level of someone like the Punisher and the Kingpin. If you're really looking for a degree of verisimilitude (and as PCat says, you're probably in the wrong genre), then embrace it.

Approach 2: Let it go and accept that any number of reasons and rationalizations exist.

Let's start with a few examples: Most heroes have secret identities. They go about their daily lives INCOGNITO. Peter Parker might carry a back-pack with his camera, spidey light (anyone remember that?), his costume and some school books. When Doc Ock attacks Times Square, he can change...FAST. He only packs the essentials and makes sure it's stuff that doesn't reveal him accidentally. That's why we don't see Spidey toting the Spider-Armor around. Too heavy and conspicuous.

Next: as the X-men would be the first to tell you: superheroing is something that happens to you when you're making other plans. Playing a game of baseball? Going to a bar? Hanging out with Beatniks at a poetry-jam? Shopping for clothes in a mall in Calgary? Catching a commercial flight? Going ice-skating in the park? Well, guess what? You're about to be trapped in your own danger room, ambushed by a trash truck run by Arcade, watch Unus the Untouchable rob a bank, get attacked by Alpha Flight, be intercepted by Factor Three (or Alpha Flight or a lot of others), and copied by the Super-Adaptoid. For the X-men, these sort of things are just a normal Tuesday. Unless you're going to wear all your equipment all the time, you better not get dependent on it. Because as often as not, you're going to be ambushed or find yourself in a battle just because of bad timing.

Further, most heroes DO have that stuff...just not for the first fight or close to hand. Reed Richards can prepare and get what he needs. The Beast can cobble together a short-term gadget. Tony Stark and Peter Parker make MacGuyver look like a kindergartner with improvised stuff. But often, these solutions are impractical, expensive or prone to malfunction.

Also: consider the 'Rule of Equals'. Superheroes often are opposed by villains appropriate to them. A utility belt for Superman would not just be superflous...it wouldn't survive the punishment of battle with Atlas or Mongul. Batman has solutions for many villians...but some of them become weaknesses or liabilities against the wrong villain. And captured villain gear? Often too dangerous for anyone except the original user...and often even too dangerous for them (they were just reckless).

And lastly, consider that superheroes generally exist in a world where Infinity Gauntlets, Cosmic Cubes and 5th dimensional beings exist. There are very few defenses against everything, so specializing on your own personal talents is normally the best way to survive. Strictly speaking, there's always someone with a bigger gun.

Are these rationalizations? You bet your bippee they are. But that's the point. Like Hong's Chickens in D&D, if you look to closely, things don't really make sense in most game settings. Which is because it's a game, not a simulation. Superhero stories where heroes are as fragile as real people isn't necessarily the stuff of fun games (though it can be, it's the more challenging route, IMHO).

A better tack might be to do something like the Avengers, the Legion of Superheroes, The Order or even the Justice League Unlimited settings. Places where heroes are part of organization that has considerable resources when they need them and gives them some degree of flexibility at the same time. But at the same time can rescind access to items and loot in a logical fashion. ("The NSA says you can't keep Doctor Malice's Ray Gun...it's unstable. Into the Vault, I'm afraid.")

 

[billd91]

Some of my players are even more hardcore realism fans than me, and I think they'll try to arm and equip themselves best of their ability. I can imagine that as soon as someone gets wounded, dragonskin and interceptor body armor are raised as issues on the table.

And that when the genre starts to cough...
...I can't tell them that "no, you can't buy this" without making it a complete railroad or whatnot.
...The genre will be distorted, with X-men and the rest of the guys running with barely nada and the players themself going para-military style with a complete different genre.
...It will effect the bad guys also, who will respond to such arms race.

So I feel that despite the best of my intentions, I think that some logical thinking from players' part and even half-modest knowledge of arms, armor and equipment can make the tone of the game somewhat different.

But does it matter? I don't know, maybe not. All I know is that I will try to pass the "awesome thights"-idea on to my players, but I can see no way I can argue back to the heavy-duty special forces style.

I think what you need to do is use a point system like Champions or Mutants and Masterminds and then make sure they pay for the useful gear they tote around. Every point spent on that sort of thing means points they can't spend on their stats, powers, and skills. As long as you are doing this, the issue tends to take care of itself. Most of these systems are robust enough to handle gadgeteers and well-equipped elite soldiers as well as they handle men in tights with wacky powers.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

One of my favorite things in HERO for low-power campaigns or supers without the flash powers is the good ole "Trenchcoat Multipower"- a bunch of cheap but useful gear (sunglasses, binoculars, flashlights, cellphones, handcuffs, etc.) that can fit into the pockets of a (Kevlar-lined) trenchcoat.

See also John Constantine from various DC Comics Vertigo line titles, Tom Baker era Dr. Who and Jerry Steiner from Parker Lewis Can't Lose.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Reposting, because the board ate it:

It's not just the 11-foot pole mentality, it's also the combat focused mentality that pervades the way a lot of people play RPGs. Your example provides an excellent case for that. Who goes to a frat party loaded down with weaponry and the stuff needed to tend to wounds?

While this is an important point, I think it's worth pointing out that, somehow!, that perfectly normal frat party managed to turn into just the sort of place where you'd need to be loaded down with weaponry and the stuff needed to tend wounds. Quel coincidence!

So, are the players really at fault here?

I think it also has something to do with the long years of "gotcha" GMs and scenarios (across multiple genres) that any experienced roleplayer has run into. You only have to be stuck down a well once (or at most twice!) before any and all future characters walk around with 50' of rope, pitons, and a small hammer at all times. The first time a short day trip to the temple outside of town turns into a 3-week slog through mountainous terrain is also the last time your character leaves the inn without 2 weeks of trail rations and enough arrows to choke a mule. Etc.

 

[Kraydak]

Reposting, because the board ate it:

While this is an important point, I think it's worth pointing out that, somehow!, that perfectly normal frat party managed to turn into just the sort of place where you'd need to be loaded down with weaponry and the stuff needed to tend wounds. Quel coincidence!

So, are the players really at fault here?

I think it also has something to do with the long years of "gotcha" GMs and scenarios (across multiple genres) that any experienced roleplayer has run into. You only have to be stuck down a well once (or at most twice!) before any and all future characters walk around with 50' of rope, pitons, and a small hammer at all times. The first time a short day trip to the temple outside of town turns into a 3-week slog through mountainous terrain is also the last time your character leaves the inn without 2 weeks of trail rations and enough arrows to choke a mule. Etc.

The above is correct, but doesn't go far enough. Generally, players who load their super-hero characters down with gear are generally NOT being genre-inappropriate, because they aren't actually playing in a spandex universe. The GM is the guy who is violating the genre. Why? Skin-tight superheros don't encounter things that screw them over because they aren't geared up. That is the core element needed for skin-tight superheroes to work. If the GM promises that the PCs with never, ever, encounter a situation where they need more gear than they can carry in spandex, then the characters will wear spandex. Normally however, the players, correctly, diagnose the genre as not-4-color and try to gear up appropriately.

 

[billd91]

So, are the players really at fault here?

Considering the GM is one of the players... I'd say so.

 

[Starman]

To put it short, I don't understand why superheroes use seemingly useless uniforms and gear.

I do believe this has been addressed somewhere in a comprehensive fashion.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There's also the aspect of hidden tech: a LOT of those "spandex" suits simply aren't. They're made of exotic materials (Unstable Molecules) or are actually skintight battlesuits with things like force fields built in. Mundane gear might actually interfere with the functioning of the hero's own tech or powers.

On top of that, many heroes are much tougher than standard humans...body armor wouldn't add any significant protection (if any), just bulk and weight.