January and Beyond!

[hayek]

On the issue of the One With Shadow power:

It baffles me that after so much discussion of the Economy of Actions, we get a power that seems to ignore the lessons learned.

Count me as also baffled. Passing on a chance to attack for a round, just so you can hide for a turn? In the hands of an inexperienced player, this will cut their effectiveness in half as they continually sacrifice standard actions they could attack with to just run away and hide in a corner. In the hands of a knowledgeable player, this power will just never be used, except as an 'escape button' to run away from a TPK.

I don't think the -1 surge is a big deal, though. If other people grind their players into the dirt every game, well more power to you, but I don't think it would make a difference in a lot of games.

 

[Klaus]

Some people get too hung up on the -1 healing surge. Just looking at the preview, let's say you want to make a striker shade.

Shade Slayer 1
S 10, Co 16, D 16 (18), I 10, W 14, Ch 8 (10)
AC 17 (hide + Dex), F 15 R 14 W 12
HP 31; Surges 11 ; Surge Value 7
Trained Skills: Athletics +5, Endurance +8, Intimidate +5, Stealth +11
Senses: Perception +2 (darkvision).
Stances: Mobile Blade (move Dex squares after hitting), Poised Assault (+1 attacks).
Weapons: Greatsword, Longbow (+7 to hit, 1d10+6 damage).
Feat: Melee Training (Dexterity)
Racial power: One With Shade (at-will standard; can use any cover/concealment to roll Stealth, even allies, until EONT).

And there you have it, a perfectly good striker, with a huge Stealth modifier, capable of going side-by-side with a rogue. At 11 surges per day, he's not missing any healing. He can strike from hiding in melee (Mobile Blade grants him the move action he needs) or from range (thanks to high Dex).

 

[Mengu]

I don't think that last comment is really fair. If you select the physically weakest combination of races, classes, and stats available, and then complain that your character is to physically weak, its the game's fault? Im not saying that the Shade gets full value for that surge they are giving up, but for goodness sake, if somone builds a fighter with a 12 strenght and can't hit anything is the game at fault or the player for buidling a really stupid character?

Your analogy is a bit off.

Constitution is not a primary stat for a wizard, not even necessarily secondary or tertiary. Say I want to play an ugly annoying half-orc barbarian with 8 charisma, or a foolish one with 8 intelligence or Wisdom, these choices do not really hurt the character in any significant way, other than maybe a somewhat wasted racial intimidate bonus. A Shade Wizard (for the sake of argument let's say Enchanter Mage) after putting most his points into Intelligence, might need some Wisdom for his PP, some Charisma to make use of his skill bonuses, and some Dex for feat qualification and stealth. He is not that far away from putting an 8 or 10 into Con. I exaggerated for impact, putting the 8 in Con going with the "sickly" concept, but even with a 10, survivability looks grim.

 

[Drakhar]

Your analogy is a bit off.

Constitution is not a primary stat for a wizard, not even necessarily secondary or tertiary. Say I want to play an ugly annoying half-orc barbarian with 8 charisma, or a foolish one with 8 intelligence or Wisdom, these choices do not really hurt the character in any significant way, other than maybe a somewhat wasted racial intimidate bonus. A Shade Wizard (for the sake of argument let's say Enchanter Mage) after putting most his points into Intelligence, might need some Wisdom for his PP, some Charisma to make use of his skill bonuses, and some Dex for feat qualification and stealth. He is not that far away from putting an 8 or 10 into Con. I exaggerated for impact, putting the 8 in Con going with the "sickly" concept, but even with a 10, survivability looks grim.

Yah Con's not a secondary stat for Wizards...except for Staff of Defence Wizards, Tome of Binding or Evocation Mages. And as far as an Enchanter Mage, he would be putting his points into Charisma not Wisdom. Wisdom is for Illusionists. And at this point, assuming he did decide to put a 10 into his Con stat, which is really ill advised at any point of time, he can still take Durable if he feels he needs more surges, though more likely he is going to take Toughness to get the most value out of each of his surges.

 

[Aegeri]

Sure, I'll play this game so let's look at that Shade Slayer vs. a Half-Orc Slayer then. The Half-Orc goes for the charge stance and pure damage stance, with strength 18, dex 18 and con 13. 8 int, 11 wis and 10 cha. He takes an executioners axe as his first feat. Due to no penalty, he is only 1 surge behind the shade (despite only having 13 con compared with 16).

I will assume that a +5 vs. AC is a 50% chance to hit (most monsters have level +14ish for AC).

Round 1:

Shade, uses his standard and move action to become hidden with his power. This is all he can do and does nothing else that round (having used his standard action). This is done to avoid attention from artillery or other monsters we'll assume.

Half-Orc, blazes right into combat immediately. He has +2 speed and +2 additional accuracy from his stance, +1 for charging (I love charging).

Accuracy will be will have +10 vs AC. From, +2 (Executioners Axe proficiency), +4 (strength), +1 (weapon talent), +1 (charge) and +2 (charge stance).

Damage; 1d12r2 (~7.5 average, Ex axe is brutal 2), +4 (Strength), +4 (Dexterity) damage.

Average damage: 7.5+7.5+4+4 = 23 average damage. He has a 75% chance of hitting.

DPR round 1 =((0.75*23)+(0.05*(32+7.5))) = 19.225 DPR
(Extra 7.5 is high crit)

Round 2:

The shade finally does something, we'll assume he stays back so he can consistently make stealth checks and uses his bow where possible.

Accuracy will be will have +11 vs AC. From, +3 (Greatbow), +4 (dex), +1 (weapon talent), +1 (stance), +2 (combat advantage hidden).

His damage: 1d10 (bow), +4 (dex), +4 (dex)

His average damage: 5.5 + 4 + 4 = 13.5 damage
(Greatsword, incidentally is 1d10+6 or 11.5 damage).

Like the half-orc, he throws on power strike as well.

DPR = ((0.80*19)+(0.05*28)) = 16.60 DPR.

Seems respectable, no? Bear in mind though, the shade spent turn 1 doing absolutely nothing to hide using stealth. The Half-Orc now gets his second turn.

The Half Orc continues to charge: Usually this is because the enemy got moved away, is disabled or most commonly the defender marks it. He probably will provoke doing this, but has the AC and resilience to take it (especially if the monster is marked). He then charges back in.

Accuracy is still +10, maybe even +12 but I'm going to just take things in somewhat isolation and assume +10.

Damage is: 7.5 + 4 + 4 = 15.5 damage.

DPR is: ((0.75*15.5)+(0.05*(20+7.5))) = 13 DPR.

Round 3: The shade is still hidden for this round.

Accuracy is still +11 vs. AC.

His average damage: 5.5 + 4 + 4 = 13.5 damage
No power strike this time.

DPR = ((0.75*13.5)+(0.05*28)) = 11.5 damage
That's actually not bad at all

At the end of this round, he loses any ability to become hidden he would have had otherwise.

The Half-Orc does the same thing he does all the time, which is whack an enemy by charging. Probably not the same target anymore either. Regardless, he does another 13 DPR.

Round 4: Final round, I don't see many combats go beyond this point.

This round the shade no longer has stealth with it ending upon attacking last round and the racial power no longer applying. This is probably the last turn of the combat, so he just attacks something instead of using the standard action racial again.

Accuracy = +9, from no longer having combat advantage.

Damage = 5.5 + 8 (same as usual)

DPR = ((0.7*13.5)+(0.05*18)) = 10.35 damage.

The half orc continues what he's doing, because why not?

He deals another 13 damage.

At the end of the combat, we see a telling difference in damage.

Round 2/3/4 damage Shade: 38.45 damage over the entire combat.

Compared to our victor, the charging Half-Orc with a whopping: 58.224 damage over that combat. Nearly 20 damage higher and this is without using the racial power whatsoever. 20 damage difference in heroic tier is huge incidentally.

Now you make the claim that the Shade slayer you built will be competitive with a rogue. Would you like to bet on that? Bear in mind that I have been generous to your shade build above, because nowhere did I use the half-orc's racial power to add another 1[W]. If I do I can add another 6.225 damage onto the total.

So here we immediately see where that racial costing a standard action heavily comes into play. The damage the shade loses to do it isn't worth the benefit - noting that the shade goes down to 10.35 damage without it (because the stealth gives that wonderful CA bonus). The charging half-orc slayer is running around, taking names and booting monsters in the fanny so much it isn't funny. He's also doing far more consistent damage than the shade. Noting that if he does feel like sticking around in melee, he can have duelists stance or just wrath stance for a +4 (isolated enemy) or +2 bonus to damage. If he works with the defender, provoking OAs to charge back isn't a terrible issue here. His non charge damage will be (for the record):

Wrath Stance = ((0.60*17.5)+(0.05*(22+7.5))) = 11.98 DPR. Still better than the shade and not far off his charging damage. So being unable to charge, say a creature with a very threatening opportunity attack doesn't nullify him. I can make the numbers worse as well if I'm allowed Dark Sun weapons. The gouge is just going to make this a beatdown of epic proportions.

The point here though is your shade striker isn't even competitive with a half-orc slayer. The half-orc slayer isn't going to look good against a rogue or thief I can tell you that now (who are both ridiculous, especially the thief). If you're not competitive with the half-orc slayer, you won't look anywhere near in the same ballpark as a rogue. A striker who spends a round doing zero damage is not a perfectly good striker either. The difference at the end in damage there by the end of the combat, which will rapidly blow out very quickly if I compared him to a rogue especially is the huge problem with the race. The standard action is a massive resource cost, which cannot be underestimated and will cost any striker a good chunk of their total damage (as I have just demonstrated). Additionally even with a lower con the half-orc has nearly as much resilience as the shade (due to 10 surges vs. 11) because he has no penalty. Effectively surge wise the shade takes a -2 penalty, so it is not hard for another race to catch up, while requiring the shade to invest in constitution more.

 

[Klaus]

And then night approaches and the entire city is dimly lit. The half-orc slayer will charge the entire army of the evil duke. The rogue will look for a way into the castle that keeps him out of sight. The shade walks in through the front door invisibly, hidden thanks to the dim light.

Out of combat, One With Shadow is very powerful. In combat, it allows for some tactical repositioning.

If all you want out of your character is the best damage-dealing, sure, go play a half-orc. If you want high accuracy, play an elf. If your game is more centered on covert operations and intrigue, a shade is perfectly good.

 

[MrMyth]

Aegeri, I don't think that's an especially compelling example. You can play a non-optimized character who is still effective, and that's what the Shade Slayer is. Your Half-orc Slayer will also be more effective than any number of other Slayers of different races, especially if they spent actions doing largely nonsensical things. An empty argument like that shows pretty much nothing.

For myself... well, getting into specific examples on this topic feels a little unnecessary. The fact that this race offers less benefits than others doesn't make it unplayable. Comparisons have been made to 'Small' and other downsides, and those are good examples - they don't prevent play, they just discourage certain builds, or punish players for choosing something based on flavor. It's something 4E tried to get away from, but has not completely let go of, and it is pretty much the same thing we have here.

Can you build an effective Shade? Sure. Even in the absolutely worst scenario - a Rogue who gets no benefit from the Stealth training, sorely misses the lost surge, and has his own class features and powers to let him hide - the character can still be effective.

But that doesn't make the downsides of their race any better. You shouldn't have to feel bad about choosing a sub-optimal option for flavor reasons. Will the choice to play a Shade complely undermine your character? Of course not. But not being unplayable doesn't mean it isn't underpowered, and it's pretty undeniable that that is what this is.

Now, since I've continued to spend time making negative comments, so tomorrow I'll see if I can come up with any builds that can actually take serious advantage of what the Shade does have to offer!

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Hmm... I would not look at this that mathematically...

Actually you can do other things in combat than "charge"

I heard the rumor that there are combat encounters that have surprise rounds for the most sneaky side, because they scouted ahead.

when I imagine the Shade popping up directly behind the enemy wizard, i can see how he fullfills his role as striker.

He is just more like a lurker than a brute, nothing wrong about that, exept in maybe those games where combat always begins with:

"suddenly 30 feet ahead there are 5 Orcs. They see you. Do you want to charge them"

At least in games I attend, often enemies are noticed before they notice you and then, using an at will every round to position exactly at the place where you want to begin combat is golden. And retreating when the job is done to strike again is extra golden.

Of course teaming up with dumb half orcs would be a bad idea for the poor shade... or rather bad for the Orc who forgets that he is not invincible while charging into the fray.

There are also times when you are immobilized or slowed and just can´t reach an enemy. Or you are badly hurt and neet to get out of a flank... Lying around dead on the ground is even worse action economy.

I really can imagine at least one occassion per combat encounter where getting in with one with shadow s better than teleporting in with fey step... because you know: if it gets ugly you get out.

Surge saved.

A lot of strikers are down to zero surges at the end of the combat, because they mixed up their striker role with playing the pincushion...

 

[Aegeri]

Out of combat, One With Shadow is very powerful

The stealth rules disagree with you.

Outside combat, the DM can allow you to make a Stealth check against a distracted enemy, even if you don’t have superior cover or total concealment and aren’t outside the enemy’s line of sight. The distracted enemy might be focused on something in a different direction, allowing you to sneak up.

So its benefit is extremely limited and again, it's something the cunning sneak gets for free without a penalty. Additionally, you can make a check to become hidden outside of the line of sight of the guards and then sneak past - because once hidden you only need concealment/cover to remain hidden. So it isn't as if this power is actually that useful out of combat to begin with, because the stealth rules out of combat are far more lenient. In the vast majority of cases it won't do anything and will be of extremely limited benefit.

You can play a non-optimized character who is still effective, and that's what the Shade Slayer is.

Actually, the Half-Orc slayer isn't well optimized, it's just a standard go to charging slayer. The point is to show how badly the standard action sink the shade has affects its overall DPR. It pulls far behind the half-orc and bear in mind, nowhere in my example did I use the half-orcs racial.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The stealth rules disagree with you.

... the power says: you can remain hidden in the shadow of creatures...

So you hide without using the power, but you can march between the enemy ranks unseen.

As I said: a fair thing to do would be giving skill focus instead of a redundand proficiency. But this is nothing for the shade in special, but an errata for the rules as a whole.

I await the advanced PHB expanding on the multiclass rules.

Actually the shade looks like he is inherently multiclassing as a shade. With a free skill and as many free power swap feats as he wants.

I so hope this is a recedent for overhauled multiclass rules: You at least get the freedom of choice between utilities.