January and Beyond!

[Aegeri]

There are also times when you are immobilized or slowed and just can´t reach an enemy.

You realize the Half-Orc slayer can pull out a longbow and pew away as much as he feels like just as effectively right? He isn't paying a cost to have an executioners axe, he can just as easily use a longbow and then charge later on (or if an enemy is in reach switch stance and attack with battle wrath). Actually this is pretty much applicable to any slayer to be honest.

I heard the rumor that there are combat encounters that have surprise rounds for the most sneaky side, because they scouted ahead.

Similarly, there can also be encounters where monsters with special sight, like tremorsense can spot you coming and make any such scouting irrelevant.

Also, you don't need a standard action power to do this. Stealth outside of combat can be done in full sunlight if your enemies aren't paying attention.

And again, a rogue can take cunning sneak and get for free what costs this race a standard action. That's a far better deal and the rogue can take a race that won't have half its features wasted for it.

... the power says: you can remain hidden in the shadow of creatures...

No it doesn't, it says you can use allies as cover - not creatures. Enemies never grant you cover and so your argument doesn't work.

Until the end of your next turn, you can make Stealth checks to become hidden when you have any cover or concealment. In addition, you can use cover from your allies to become hidden or to remain hidden.

You need to examine the stealth rules again, bearing in mind outside of combat the shade cannot do anything that anyone else trained in stealth can do.

If all you want out of your character is the best damage-dealing, sure, go play a half-orc. If you want high accuracy, play an elf. If your game is more centered on covert operations and intrigue, a shade is perfectly good.

The standard action is a huge sink though in terms of actions. This is something that keeps being avoided, but it is hard to argue with compared to the likes of the cunning sneak. Who gets the same thing and gets it for free.

 

[Mengu]

If all you want out of your character is the best damage-dealing, sure, go play a half-orc. If you want high accuracy, play an elf. If your game is more centered on covert operations and intrigue, a shade is perfectly good.

This goes completely against the 4e mantra of every character will be useful in combat. That's why they did away with balancing non-combat activities with combat activities. Every race gets a set of non-combat bonuses (in the way of skill bonuses, languages, etc). And every race gets a set of combat bonuses (often at least one feature, sometimes 2-3, and one encounter power).

The Shade's only combat feature is -1 healing surge. However I look at it, I see nothing else usable in combat out of the box, like a dragonborn's bonus when bloodied and boost to healing surge value, tiefling's bonus against bloodied targets, halfling's bonus against opportunity attacks, etc. The racial power, and at least one feature of the race should always have a positive impact in combat to maintain this balance. It's great that a Shade Warlock can traverse an open courtyard without being seen. But that could easily have been a level 2 shadow utility power. Something that's not obligatory for every member of the race.

I guess in the end if people want to play this race as is, fine, it's just not my cup of tea, and I'm not even a die hard optimizer. Taking away from combat options to provide non-combat tools just does not seem very balanced to me in the current realm of 4e.

 

[Aegeri]

The problem with your argument Mengu is that it misses the actual problem. The shade is no better at stealth outside of combat because the racial does nothing that actually helps. If we actually go and look up the stealth rules, they don't require you to have cover/concealment when enemies are distracted. Against alert creatures (that are unaware of you), you can start stealth outside of their line of sight and then move past them - using the same dim light (or whatever) that the shade will be using. So I question that the shade is better outside of combat to begin with.

Inside of combat it's a massive action sink and my maths above more than adequately prove my point.

Edit: The one exception I can think of is the PCs are ambushed in the middle of the road, a field or something else. The shade could use the power and then hide amongst his allies - assuming the creatures are stupid enough to notice he's not gone that could get him into a better position. At the same time, given this is a real example from one of my games a PC could use bluff to distract the creatures and the rogue make a stealth check to escape anyway (as they are now not focused on him). The power just removes the requirement for the PCs to work together a bit for the rogue to slip away and get into a better spot. It is a valid use of it, but it requires some engineering. All uses of this power actually require some serious engineering to use outside of combat compared with anyone else using stealth. I mean if your DM is making every monster ever in existence pay attention 100% of the time, I'll just be amazed stealth ever works in the first place outside of combat. Stealth has only worked poorly in my Eberron game for the Assassin/Rogue because most insects have tremorsense - in later modules it will be incredibly useful.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

@ Aegerly:

1. Standing aound immobilized with a longbow will not make you invulnerable. You may still end your life there...

2. Cunning sneak allows you to become hidden in the shadow of creatures, but doesn´t allow remaining hidden.
you can activate - you do realize it is an at-will, do you? - every round...

And maybe you are not a rogue. Being a Rogue is a much greater opportunity cost than beeing no Half-Orc. (YMMV)

3. As you Half Orc is no Swiss Army knife excelling in everything, the shade is also non of it. There may be encounters, where hiding in shadows is not going to work, especially ugly for a rogue. A shade slayer has a much better time.

4. If I played a shade bard, would gladly trade in every utility i have at low levels to get a useful one. (No +1 power bonus to attack sustain minor daily won´t cut it)

 

[hayek]

This goes completely against the 4e mantra of every character will be useful in combat. That's why they did away with balancing non-combat activities with combat activities. Every race gets a set of non-combat bonuses (in the way of skill bonuses, languages, etc). And every race gets a set of combat bonuses (often at least one feature, sometimes 2-3, and one encounter power).

The Shade's only combat feature is -1 healing surge. However I look at it, I see nothing else usable in combat out of the box, like a dragonborn's bonus when bloodied and boost to healing surge value, tiefling's bonus against bloodied targets, halfling's bonus against opportunity attacks, etc. The racial power, and at least one feature of the race should always have a positive impact in combat to maintain this balance. It's great that a Shade Warlock can traverse an open courtyard without being seen. But that could easily have been a level 2 shadow utility power. Something that's not obligatory for every member of the race.

I guess in the end if people want to play this race as is, fine, it's just not my cup of tea, and I'm not even a die hard optimizer. Taking away from combat options to provide non-combat tools just does not seem very balanced to me in the current realm of 4e.

This - 100%.

I completely agree with Klaus that the One With Shadow power is freaking AWESOME outside of combat. But in combat it is only an action sink except for extremely rare niche circumstances, like when it's appropriate to take the Total Defense action.

I think the better comparison is with the Changeling - this race also gets a freaking AWESOME out of combat power - change self at will. Plus, it gets a mildly useful combat power. Why does the Shade only get a useful out of combat power when the Changeling gets that and a combat power?

 

[Truename]

The "hidden" condition is even better than invisibility, because enemies don't know what square you're in. An at-will power to give this to you as easily as One With Shadow does is *very* powerful. No wonder it's a standard action.

Another way to think of One With Shadow is that it's a "Free Action" encounter power that can only be used just before combat starts.

Also, I'd bet money that Klaus is desperately biting his tongue, trying not to say anything about the paragon path, power, or feat that makes One With Shadow a minor action.

 

[Klaus]

Even when creatures are aware of you, you can hide behind an ally and then keep hidden as you move to flank the enemy, or reach the enemy leader, etc. UngeheuerLich has the right idea when comparing the shade with a lurker.

I'll have to refrain from saying more, lest some shadow hound come drag me kicking and screaming into the Shadowfell.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

This - 100%.

I completely agree with Klaus that the One With Shadow power is freaking AWESOME outside of combat. But in combat it is only an action sink except for extremely rare niche circumstances, like when it's appropriate to take the Total Defense action.

I think the better comparison is with the Changeling - this race also gets a freaking AWESOME out of combat power - change self at will. Plus, it gets a mildly useful combat power. Why does the Shade only get a useful out of combat power when the Changeling gets that and a combat power?

This i also something i completely agree with. His combat power however come later as power swaps. It is an intersting concept. But I am also not sure if a minor combat encounter power would be overpowered? I don´t think so.

 

[Aegeri]

1. Standing aound immobilized with a longbow will not make you invulnerable. You may still end your life there...

And bursts and blasts will pick you out from being hidden anyway. The point of that is if you're immobilized as a slayer, you can just pull out a ranged weapon and be completely competent in attacking with it. That's really all the point I was making.

2. Cunning sneak allows you to become hidden in the shadow of creatures, but doesn´t allow remaining hidden

Cunning sneak doesn't allow you to become hidden in the shadows of your allies (not creatures). It allows you to become hidden if you move 3 squares and have any cover or concealment. The shade has a small advantage here in that his applies to creatures, but once again it costs you a standard action. Vs. not taking any action whatsoever except moving at least 3 squares. Noting that for your standard action you don't actually get to make a stealth check - you still need another action to do so. Making it a double action sink, at least a standard + move action.

It also does allow you to remain hidden if you have cover/concealment. See the rules for stealth once you are hidden and what breaks being hidden.

3. As you Half Orc is no Swiss Army knife excelling in everything, the shade is also non of it.

The difference is, IMO, that the shade excels at nothing yet pays a heavy cost (standard action sink racial and -1 healing surge) for it.

There may be encounters, where hiding in shadows is not going to work, especially ugly for a rogue. A shade slayer has a much better time.

I disagree, because I think the shade will be just as poor off. For example, the rogue is useless against spiders with tremorsense. What exactly makes the shade any better at dealing with those same tremorsensing spiders?

4. If I played a shade bard, would gladly trade in every utility i have at low levels to get a useful one. (No +1 power bonus to attack sustain minor daily won´t cut it)

Maybe but some of those leader utilities are very good and to be honest, I don't see a shade bard being very good either (despite having the stats for it). Here I will say the standard action sink on the racial is a massive detriment - especially for a leader.

I completely agree with Klaus that the One With Shadow power is freaking AWESOME outside of combat.

It's useless outside of combat because of the way the stealth rules work. It's two main benefits don't apply and while you could use allies to hide, that's the only thing it allows you to do differently. This is an extremely minor benefit, given that a warlock could simply walk three squares and do the same thing with his class feature for no cost whatsoever (as he will gain concealment)! That's a pretty niche use and will have extremely limited utility, while in combat it is a massive detrimental action sink.

I am not convinced by this argument whatsoever.

 

[Walking Dad]

As we got the PH2, nearly all primal character had more HP and surges than usual for their class. When I saw the first assassin, I realized that having less HP and surges was part of the shadow power source.

Now we don't get any new shadow power only classes, but their shtick has wandered to the shade race...

So a shade assassin is a really bad combination for your Surges, unless you play the stat-wise less optimal Dex/Con variant

I really hope for some truly awesome racial feats and an errata that gives you skill focus instead of a skill if you get a skill from two sources (shade rogue, assassin/rogue multiclass, druid/shaman multiclass, ...)