The "real" reason the game has changed.

[pemerton]

And I'll again answer by repeating my point that nothing is "impeded".

You can't STOP me from roleplaying when I play chess.

The idea that one would consider the suitable of HeroQuest for RPGing by reference to chess is completely bizarre.

The logic of your position is that 3E is a better vehicle for roleplaying than is HeroQuest. That strikes me as a strange claim.

Also, if we are looking for a game in which no PC will improve mechanically without experience, why is either RQ or (played with certain options) RM not the game of choice?

 

[ProfessorCirno]

RuneQuest owns, and it owns hard, or at least Mongoose Edition which is what I've played does.

If you've ever wanted a bronze age, sword and sandals, age of (gritty) mythology style game, it's perfect.

Plus, as good as several D&D games have been (Planescape Torment, Mask of the Betrayer), King of Dragon Pass isn't just so brutally awesome, it also sets the stage perfectly for the actual setting and tabletop game.

It's also way better for roleplaying then just about any edition of D&D, which has always at its heart been about...well, hell, it's about Dungeons and Dragons. Going into Dungeons and encountering Dragons (to take their things).

...That is what you mean by RQ, right?

 

[pemerton]

Prof, yes, although I was thinking of the old Chaosium/Avalon Hill (? I think) editions.

 

[Hussar]

On the point of 4e skills getting better.

Yes, you gain half your level to skills. Think about that for a second in game terms. Remember that in 4e, stat bonuses are pretty hard to come by. It's not like you pick up +2 or +4 stat bonus items all that easily. And even skill bonus items are fairly limited. So, the bonus that you have to an untrained skill isn't going to be a whole lot more than that 1/2 level bonus. Particularly if you're using standard point buy characters.

It's not unusual to have a skill with no stat bonus at all.

The DC's for skill checks do go up faster than 1/2 per level do they not? I don't have the errata in front of me, so, i'm not entirely sure of the exact numbers, but, while a 1/2 level skill might cover an easy difficulty with reasonable odds, a hard difficulty would be out of reach of an unskilled character.

So, yup, my wizard gets marginally better at climbing stuff as he goes up levels. At 1st level, his spindly little arms just won't get him up that wall. At 30th level, he can climb that wall pretty easily.

Of course, by 30th level, what the heck am I doing trying to climb that same wall?

My point in all this is that the issue is a bit more nuanced than BryonD is presenting. It's not like the unskilled character can automatically do everyting. Being unskilled means you're going to fail a lot. Try having a character that's unskilled in Perception try to find those hiding doppleganger assassins. The trained guy might do it, but the untrained guy is very unlikely to.

In other words, that bonus is there to cover the mundane stuff that comes up early in the game and then gets glossed over later on. At 1st level, a 20 foot pit is a big deal. At 15th level, it's a speedbump.

Whether that's a good or a bad thing depends on your tastes I suppose.

 

[Sorrowdusk]

When my wizard gets better at firing a crossbow as he levels, despite never touching one; when my rogue gets better at opening locks despite having just leveled up following a stroll through a goblin warren when he never touched one; when D&D has never imposed a restriction on getting better only at the things you do rather than on all sorts of things in one go; that's also the system imposing itself on the story.

I'll agree with this. Fact of the matter is-it has always been possible to add skill points to skills whether you use them or not, 4e just does it for you. A DM of mine didnt like leveling PCs as soon as the got the XP, he liked to have a downtime or IC reflection period during which they would rest from adventurers and train their skills (actually I believe according to DMG/PHB you're supposed to be doing it all the time even if you dont take the time neceessarily to depict in a scene).

On thing I do like about Call of Cthulhu's system, is the fact that skills increase based on their use.

 

[scourger]

I agree with the OP and with the Savage Worlds philosophy. The return on my gaming investment has to be pretty high to justify the opportunity cost to my family, career and other activities.

 

[Mort]

While I certainly agree with your overall point (My preferences have certainly changed with age, family etc.) I have to wonder about the following:

If you enjoy 3E, you either find more time and/or find more shortcuts.

If you enjoy 4E, you make the conscious effort to give creedence to the story because the system isn't going to push you or remind you.

Otherwise you either go "back" or just give it up all together.

Thoughts?

Now I see the "less prep time" part. By the end of my 3.5 campaign (which made it into epic levels) it was all I could do to keep up with prep, and I used every shortcut I could (computer aids, short stat blocks, filching from every source I could get my hands on, etc.). I have no such issue with 4e, my prep time has been cut dramatically; at least not yet, will have to see how it develops.

But I just don't see the "less credence to story" part, at least not compared to 3e. Heck the fact that there is less prep time actually gives me more time to focus on story! Perhaps it's because I'm running an Ebberron campaign and the world seems to really mesh with the 4e system (at least for me).

 

[shadzar]

But I just don't see the "less credence to story" part, at least not compared to 3e. Heck the fact that there is less prep time actually gives me more time to focus on story! Perhaps it's because I'm running an Ebberron campaign and the world seems to really mesh with the 4e system (at least for me).

OK YOU as the DM have more time to work on story, but how about your players, and what goes on with/during the game?

How much does storytelling get explained in the books as opposed to the combat? How much of a story can the players tell around the rules as presented? Are they hindered in any way to tell particular stories because of difficulties created by the rules.

Before or after playing, tying some kind of story to what is going to happen, or what happened is not too hard, even if it does pose some problems, but how well are your players able to tell their own characters story through play and during play?

 

[Mort]

OK YOU as the DM have more time to work on story, but how about your players, and what goes on with/during the game?

How much does storytelling get explained in the books as opposed to the combat? How much of a story can the players tell around the rules as presented? Are they hindered in any way to tell particular stories because of difficulties created by the rules.

Before or after playing, tying some kind of story to what is going to happen, or what happened is not too hard, even if it does pose some problems, but how well are your players able to tell their own characters story through play and during play?

Again, compared to 3e, it is at worst a wash. Frankly, I see much better "story" and creativity currently evidenced in the game because my players have stopped the 3e mentality of "ok, what spell is going to get us out of this one" and actually have to think of roleplaying, creative solutions (especially out of combat).

 

[shadzar]

Again, compared to 3e, it is at worst a wash. Frankly, I see much better "story" and creativity currently evidenced in the game because my players have stopped the 3e mentality of "ok, what spell is going to get us out of this one" and actually have to think of roleplaying, creative solutions (especially out of combat).

So the "skill challenge" system, or something else outside of combat, is encouraging them to roleplay, as opposed to 3rd where it was just picking a mechanical ability to get them out of a jam?

How about the story telling via combat? Is it still about your players just using the mechanics, or are they being creative to do things that may not be spelled out with the mechanics?

Examples would be great for the overall discussion, even if anecdotal evidence.