The "real" reason the game has changed.

[Aeolius]

You can't STOP me from roleplaying when I play chess...

Just the other day, my 12-year old daughter said "Dad, you're the only person I know that mades sound effects while driving."

 

[Mallus]

I admit I never quite understood the "a 4e character is forced to improve in all their skills" kerfuffle.

An AD&D PC is "forced" to improve their THAC0, gain hit points, and increase their chance to avoid harm, including supernatural harm, as they level. This "forces" players to play characters who get better at combat, regardless of whether this fits their concept.

The idea a PC improves in multiple areas as they gain levels (often without offering a choice of specific improvements) is pretty much a defining characteristic of level-based systems. One could argue that by 4e, skills were finally brought in line with other character elements, and pegged directly to level (along with customization options).

Automatically gaining the ability to swim better is bad, but automatically gaining the ability to survive being run through with a lance or surviving a disintegration ray isn't? I can understand that as a matter of taste, but that's because taste isn't subject to reason (and shouldn't be).

 

[shadzar]

I am referring to the indie RPG written by Robin Laws.

Never heard of it or her before....

I personally haven't noticed this feature of 4e. The PCs do very different things both in combat and out of it, and my players are constantly making choices about the growth of their PCs, in terms of feat, power and skill selection and retraining as they level their PCs, establishing the in-game basis for their pending Paragon Paths, etc.

I'd be interested to hear more about the actual play that has led to you having the opposite experiences. My most recent actual play post of a 4e session is here.

Cant give you what was done once years ago. Like 3rd plays, 4th just reads like a bunch of lists and requires a computer program to track characters to add all the things as they level via picking from lists.

Now earlier editions had lists as well, but the confines of those lists werent as constrictive because they didnt have a list for everything, as you listed of choices of "feats, skills, powers"...this isnt character growth but power growth. It isnt like giving mechanics to tell a story, since you have to try to weasel those mechanic in somehow to get the story to make any sense (See Spellplague in Faerun)

So while earlier editions let your character grow with few lists to decide how you want to steer them, unless you lock yourself into some kit with more lists, 3rd somewhat, and 4th a lot more has made most of the choices for your character, again by giving those lists you mention "feats, powers, skills". So rather than being able to tell your story, you are telling the designers story they set forth to kep you within your power-level bracket.

So a big question as to why that sort of change, maybe people have moved away from telling the character story, and more to wanting a game for combat simulation, so the game offers that to them and has changed to become that. And no one can really deny the move more towards combat and that more people playing today prefer the combat which the mechanics are laid out for, and deal less with the story aspects. It is the changingtimes due to the "fresh blood" the game got.

So is it still a game where you tell the character's story through playing, or one where you make up the story AFTER you have played?

Sure, in theory there are no barriers. But in reality, it's different.

<snip>
Playing DnD-type games requires a massive commitment of time and energy

Actually it isnt different, and the commitment is none different they make to their spouse. I am not saying choose a game over your spouse, just about how much you are willing to commit to it. Anything else is an excuse. It may be harder to make the time, but your choice determines how much effort you put into it. If you can find the time to get together with people to play, then that is the hardest part. You can work to create the game or have things ready anytime without having to sit down for a single session of hours worth of doing it.

Anything in life you want to do, it is your choice whether you make enough time to do it or not, if you have the physical ability to do it.

 

[BryonD]

I admit I never quite understood the "a 4e character is forced to improve in all their skills" kerfuffle.

Ok. Noted.

One could argue that by 4e, skills were finally brought in line with other character elements, and pegged directly to level (along with customization options).

I don't see any point in arguing such a plainly self-evident truth.

The point is not "did they do that", the point is "is it a good thing?".

Automatically gaining the ability to swim better is bad, but automatically gaining the ability to survive being run through with a lance or surviving a disintegration ray isn't? I can understand that as a matter of taste, but that's because taste isn't subject to reason (and shouldn't be).

If you can only see the taste element of that and can't see the other huge differences, then yeah, you won't be able to see where we are coming from.


But, again, it isn't about right and wrong, better or worse.

It is about preference and maximizing the market share vs. splitting the market.

 

[Bluenose]

If you can only see the taste element of that and can't see the other huge differences, then yeah, you won't be able to see where we are coming from.

Because getting better in every single weapon that exists including ones you've never heard of is a natural part of progressing as an adventurer, but doing the same with skills that aren't about hitting things is an outrageous violation of everything that makes sense.

No, I don't see where you're coming from.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Frankly, that's why RCFG has weapon skills.

OTOH, that you automatically got better with a bohemian ear spoon is unlikely to enter into game events (and so intrude upon the game); that you got better at swimming, climbing, horseback riding, and nosepicking is. And that is, I think, where the difference lies.


RC

 

[C_M2008]

Frankly, that's why RCFG has weapon skills.

OTOH, that you automatically got better with a bohemian ear spoon is unlikely to enter into game events .


RC

My next character is so going to use a bohemian ear spoon (1d1-1 damage).

 

[Nagol]

My next character is so going to use a bohemian ear spoon (1d1-1 damage).

It must be a particularly broken one! Those things are nasty!

Bohemian earspoon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Google Image Result for http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1660/qgh7173ps443cp9.jpg

 

[Raven Crowking]

Indeed!

 

[TarionzCousin]

Shadzar, I think by HeroQuest you may be meaning the boardgame(? board-based RPG) of that name, whereas I am referring to the indie RPG written by Robin Laws. A lot of people regard it as a leading example of story-promoting roleplaying design. And its action resolution mechanics and encounter building guidelines resemble 4e skill challenges and encounter building guidelines in many respects. (This resemblance has been further consolidated by Robin Laws' role in authoring DMG2, but predates that particular rulebook.)

Never heard of it or her before....

Robin Laws is a man. He's written many RPG books and articles.

More on HeroQuest the RPG, too.