E6 SRD - community project

[Theo R Cwithin]

file: Monsters E-F

status: in progress

comment:

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Looking for input/advice/comment on...

MONSTERS

Ok, after looking at several files, I'm seeing some distinct patterns. It's looking like about 2/3s of chopped monsters are candidates to get added back in-- often just because they're more powerful versions of included monsters. I imagine this pattern is emerging simply because most CR6 monsters aren't actually very challenging for a level 6 party; "very difficult" solos are expected to be CR10+. IOW, cutting at CR6 is removing all challenging monsters from the mix.

Of the candidates for re-inclusion, I'm also getting the feeling that these fall into two groups: obvious 'no brainer' creatures-- such as beefy animals or giants-- which are challenging simply because they are bigger, meaner, faster, toxicker, etc; and then other creatures that "feel" correct for re-inclusion (eg, for being iconic, mythological, etc) but possess abilities that likely outclass PCs, effectively increasing their CRs in a strict E6 campaign.

So I'm thinking we should change the approach to monster selection. I suggest the CR cutoff be raised to CR10 or 12. Then, instead of noting what ought to be re-included, just note creatures which are "highly magical" (likely outsiders, fey, some aberrations, creatures with caster levels of 7+); these would either be eventually discarded, edited slightly for E6ization, or else shifted to an appendix of more dangerous "lean up" monsters (or even just named but not statted, with a reference to the full SRD, and noted as "appropriate for higher power, lean-up E6 games"). End result will be a monster list including all monsters up to CR6; plus more mundane ones of higher CR; and as well as notes on potential problem creatures to excise.

I think this will make editing monster files a bit easier. Instead of (for example) cutting 10 statblocks, then re-including 6 or 7 of them, we'll just cut 3 obviously non-E6 and weed out other ones on a case by case basis, either now or in the next phase. And those numbers-- cut 10, re-add 6-- are roughly what I'm seeing per file. If nothing else, I really believe this will save time and reformatting headaches down the line.

I'll briefly hold off further monster edits for input. If I don't hear anything, I'll re-do the files already done as discussed above.

 

[Gilladian]

Looking for input/advice/comment on...

MONSTERS

I'll briefly hold off further monster edits for input. If I don't hear anything, I'll re-do the files already done as discussed above.

I think your suggestion is perfectly valid. I'm seeing the same trend you are and have no problem with just listing with the posted document a short comment about which monsters maybe should be edited/given a second viewing.

 

[ideasmith]

As I understand it, a single CR 6 creature is supposed to be a match for a single level 6 PC. The rulebook suggests setting a CR 6 as an average encounter on the assumption that most encounters should not be even. But since some encounters should, a party of 6th level PCs should sometimes fight a single creature of above CR 6. As I understand it:

A single level 6 PC is a match for a single CR 6 creature.

Two level 6 PCs are a match for a single CR 8 creature.

Four level 6 PCs are a match for a single CR 10 creature.

Eight level 6 PCs are a match for a single CR 12 creature.

In any case, leaving elephants out would be just ridiculous.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

In any case, leaving elephants out would be just ridiculous.

Hehe, agreed! I believe the numbers you cited are the rationale behind the CR+5="overwhelming" rule of thumb: at that point, an encounter is more than 50% likely to be a TPK (assuming 4 PCs).

All right then! Let's shift gears and change the cutoff to CR12. I'll redo the files I've already done. Gilladian, iirc, the "Monsters-Animals" file tops out at CR10-ish, so it becomes a "no change" file, right?

For creatures in the range of CR7-12, just make a note of ones you think are likely more difficult in a strict E6 game than their CR would indicate (though if monster is obviously too difficult, feel free to just chuck it, even if it is less than CR12). I'm guessing noted creatures will be those with two or three of:
- high DR;
- high SR;
- spells/SLAs/Su abilities that rely on 4th+ level spells (especially save-or-die effects).
- other stuff I've forgotten, probably

We'll figure out exactly what to do with these more problematic monsters during a later pass through the material.

 

[ideasmith]

Hehe, agreed! I believe the numbers you cited are the rationale behind the CR+5="overwhelming" rule of thumb: at that point, an encounter is more than 50% likely to be a TPK (assuming 4 PCs).

All right then! Let's shift gears and change the cutoff to CR12. I'll redo the files I've already done. Gilladian, iirc, the "Monsters-Animals" file tops out at CR10-ish, so it becomes a "no change" file, right?

According to the monster filter (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20monsterfilter/index.php) I checked, the highest animal CR in the SRD is 9 (4-way tie between triceratops, dire shark, roc, and giant squid).

For creatures in the range of CR7-12, just make a note of ones you think are likely more difficult in a strict E6 game than their CR would indicate (though if monster is obviously too difficult, feel free to just chuck it, even if it is less than CR12). I'm guessing noted creatures will be those with two or three of:
- high DR;
- high SR;
- spells/SLAs/Su abilities that rely on 4th+ level spells (especially save-or-die effects).
- other stuff I've forgotten, probably

We'll figure out exactly what to do with these more problematic monsters during a later pass through the material.

Abilities that rely or 4th+ level spells will need to be tagged in any case, since the spells involved will need to be included somewhere, possibly in a monstrous spells doc analogous to the current monstrous feats doc.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Abilities that rely or 4th+ level spells will need to be tagged in any case, since the spells involved will need to be included somewhere, possibly in a monstrous spells doc analogous to the current monstrous feats doc.

Ugh, don't remind me. We're still mulling over how to do this.

I've considered a "monstrous spells" doc as you've mentioned; or, isolating all monsters that need them, and refer to the full SRD; or else simply in-lining the ability (ie, the spell text, but 'harwired' to the requisite numbers) in the statblock. Written out as spells, there's the advantage of, well, having the spells there in a format ready for "lean up" E6 campaign that want to provide PC access to them; this also minimizes edits to the official SRD text.

(Actually, on that note, how do we do that for the E6 feats "Restoration" and "Stone to flesh"? I made a half-baked attempt somewhere upthread to sort of make spell-but-not-really-a-spell in the file Feats.rtf, but it's just a place holder with little thought put into it at this point. Suggestions on handling that would be welcome.)

Another thing we'll need to consider is monsters that act like spellcasters in excess of 6th level (eg, nymph casts as a Drd7, thus has a 4th level slot). Do we limit that slot to metamagicked spells? Do we add all 4th level Drd spells to the "monstrous spells" doc? If so, then why not do the same for Clr and Sor/Wiz-- and where do we detail Drd7 (etc) casters? Or do we modify the nymph to be a 6th level caster, with bonus feats to bring her power level back up to 7th? Or...?

But I'd like to finish up the monster list first, then get an idea of what's required. I'm thinking we'll get the rough draft out the door, and come back to it later with fresh eyes.

 

[Gilladian]

According to the monster filter (d20 Monster Filter :: Pen, Paper, & Pixel) I checked, the highest animal CR in the SRD is 9 (4-way tie between triceratops, dire shark, roc, and giant squid).

Interestingly the triceratops and roc are NOT in the Animals file. Triceratops should be in with the dinosaurs, shouldn't it? I don't know why roc isn't with the other animals, except that despite being classed as "gargantuan animal", it clearly isn't "just" an animal.

But yes, the animals file should/can be left untouched, as far as I'm concerned. Ephelants should not be extincted in E6!

Abilities that rely or 4th+ level spells will need to be tagged in any case, since the spells involved will need to be included somewhere, possibly in a monstrous spells doc analogous to the current monstrous feats doc.

Orc_within has mentioned the complexities of 4th level spell casting monsters. I'm all for one of two methods of dealing with them - either just leave the 4th level spell slot open for metamagic (with a clear note that this is the intention), or replace that spell slot with a special ability that (somewhat) mimics a useful 4th level spell, but include a note for "lean up" dms that if they intend to allow 4th level spells, this slot should be reopened.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

I'm going a bit slow on the redo here, just so I can really understand how pervasive all these higher level spell-dependent special abilities are. There are quite a few (even low-CR) critters with higher-level SLAs that will have to be incorporated into monster statblocks or "special abilities" files, so it's becoming a concern since we've been paying attention to minimizing edits to the official SRD up to this point.

So basically, i'm just making a couple lists: one of mainly mundane, minimally magical critters; and one of highly magical ones (with access to any special ability that references a spell of level 4+).

Anyway, I'll try to prep and post these lists later today when I've got time. Hopefully they'll be helpful in sorting out this monster chopping process.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Interestingly the triceratops and roc are NOT in the Animals file. Triceratops should be in with the dinosaurs, shouldn't it? I don't know why roc isn't with the other animals, except that despite being classed as "gargantuan animal", it clearly isn't "just" an animal.

But yes, the animals file should/can be left untouched, as far as I'm concerned. Ephelants should not be extincted in E6!

Yes, I saw dinos and dire animals in the D-files, and I suppose a few other oddballs are scattered throughout. I think ideasmith simply pulled all the "Animal" type creatures out of the database. It's good to know they all top out at CR9.

Long live the Oliphant!