Scott Thorne, a retailer, comments on recent events

[Bacris]

That seems especially cynical to me. I think the whole reason they give out the errata for free is so that it is easily accessible and doesn't require the customers to make any further purchases.

You're missing the point.

While the errata is free, a company with the size and experience of WotC should have fairly minimal errata, or its errata should be in obscure places. What I believe ExploderWizard is saying is that issuing errata is fine - with a system as complex as just about any RPG is, it's actually to be expected. But the VOLUME of the errata being released is the issue.

Some = okay
Lots = bad, even if it's free.

Lots of errrata points to having done minimal editing / internal review / proofing / lack of quality controls. A company with the resources of WotC is expected to do that stuff better than most.

 

[Chainsaw Mage]

So Paizo's taken a chunk out of WotC off-the-shelf market share. Well, so what?

Isn't the fact that WotC's focusing on DDI and the subscription format make this a fait accompli? It just makes logical sense. They're voluntarily giving up publishing market share, because they make more money via DDI subscriptions than they do for hardcover book sales.

Look, being optimistic is fine, but this statement above is a wee bit out of touch with the simple realities of supply and demand. Companies that are making a ton of $$$ don't "voluntarily give up" the market. Companies that are LOSING $$$ do.

 

[Ourph]

Look, being optimistic is fine, but this statement above is a wee bit out of touch with the simple realities of supply and demand. Companies that are making a ton of $$$ don't "voluntarily give up" the market. Companies that are LOSING $$$ do.

Companies that have two options for distributing their product will choose the one that generates the most profit. It doesn't mean that one is profitable and the other one is losing money, it means if you think you can make more money by focusing on one instead of doing both, it makes good sense to do it.

 

[Dark Mistress]

I say this as someone who vastly prefers 4E to 3.x/PF: WOTC seems to think that they're the only game in town, as it were... as if they have a captive audience and marketing ventures are all the equivalent of shooting fish in a barrel (which actually may be true, inasmuch as I'm not sure that shooting fish in a barrel is actually possible... if you want to kill the fish you're much better off just dumping the water out).

Not to derail the thread but they actual tested that saying on Mythbusters and it turns out the shock wave from a bullet fired into a barrel of water would kill a fish even if you missed them and kill all of them. Just thought I would mention it, I love that show.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

Lots of errrata points to having done minimal editing / internal review / proofing / lack of quality controls. A company with the resources of WotC is expected to do that stuff better than most.

That's fair. Personally I'm happy that things eventually get fixed even if they should have been more perfect from the get go.

 

[BryonD]

I love the synergy of moving goal posts and sour grapes.

For months now we've been hearing report after report that Paizo is matching or beating WotC. And every time the claim was met with howls that the source was unverifiable therefore their claim was automatically proven false.

Suddenly it might be true, but is all meaningless because this was the plan all along....

I believe based on my experience that DDI is successful, BUT 4E is still going from ok downward in total fanbase, regardless of what media you look at. Yes, the book trade is taken the brunt of it. But that doesn't mean it is simply a one to one transition from paper to electronic. It is nowhere near that.

The change in sales is a composite of both fewer players and some players switching to DDI.

 

[xechnao]

Companies that have two options for distributing their product will choose the one that generates the most profit. It doesn't mean that one is profitable and the other one is losing money, it means if you think you can make more money by focusing on one instead of doing both, it makes good sense to do it.

If books were profitable they would have kept printing them unless they could have figured out that the printed books would have weighted negatively on the profits of DDI so that the profit losses of DDI would outclass the profits of the books.

I am not seeing it.

 

[JoeGKushner]

On one hand, WoTC has their Encounters programs. Which from my observations, they got cheap on. Same as the old Game Day programs they did a while ago. Perhaps they weren't seeing the returns they wanted on them in terms of purchases. The fact that they still support them and still provide adventurers and have other plans, is good.

On the other hand, we have the DDI. If stores are making most of their money from D&D, they need to, like WoTC, learn to react and do so quickly and start diversifying their goods and services.

I agree with some that only printed book sales cannot tell how WoTC is doing but not can it do that for Paizo, as they have their own subscription model, which often gets overlooked in these conversations.

I do think however, that in terms of bringing those 'millions' of fans back to the fold that it appeared to me, that WoTC bent over backwards to do with that retro ads and Red Box nonsense, that if they do come back, it won't be to WoTC, it'll be to some OSR publisher or to some pirated copy of the older rules they already knew.

 

[Korgoth]

You're missing the point.

While the errata is free, a company with the size and experience of WotC should have fairly minimal errata, or its errata should be in obscure places. What I believe ExploderWizard is saying is that issuing errata is fine - with a system as complex as just about any RPG is, it's actually to be expected. But the VOLUME of the errata being released is the issue.

Some = okay
Lots = bad, even if it's free.

Lots of errrata points to having done minimal editing / internal review / proofing / lack of quality controls. A company with the resources of WotC is expected to do that stuff better than most.

Yeah, just because the errata should be free (as it is) doesn't mean that the errata should exist (in that volume) in the first place.

Given that WOTC's books don't contain much else, it seems that they see their job to be writing rules. They should do that accurately if that's their thing. If a poet makes a lot of math mistakes you blow it off; an accountant, not so much.

 

[Azgulor]

So basically what you're saying is that until WotC comes out and tells you that their DDI subscriptions are their main source of revenue... then DDI is not their main source of revenue and the company's not doing well.

Oh yeah. Makes perfect sense. (And yes, that was sarcasm.)

No, what I'm saying is that DDI is an additive D&D revenue stream, not the primary D&D revenue stream. The assertion that Pathfinder was only making inroads on 4e was due to WotC abandoning print has little evidence to support it. It's equally possible that Pathfinder is catching/outperforming 4e because an increasing number of people like it more.

I've said repeatedly in numerous posts, that until tangible evidence to the contrary emerges (an official WotC announcement, news of a 5e, formal declaration of abandoning print, etc.), I believe 4e to be a money maker for WotC. I'm just sick of 4e fans asserting that every move WotC makes is good for the game & good for the hobby & that any success Paizo is achieving with Pathfinder is a fluke, an anomaly, or b/c WotC stepped out of the way & let them succeed.

Case in point: Settings & Adventures. According to WotC, these products are money-losers or a weak link in an RPG business plan. Yet they are the cornerstone products at Paizo. While the two companies' business plans are different enough in scale to bear out WotC's assertion, what I've seen in 3e & 4e adventures from WotC (save a few standouts) suggests that it goes beyond that. The body of evidence suggests that they simply don't have the desire, talent, or perhaps the will to write & publish great adventures. Could they? Almost certainly. Yet they continue to fall short in that regard.