Scott Thorne, a retailer, comments on recent events

[Wicht]

I don't recall using the word "doom" once

 

[Banshee16]

I'm skeptical about any statements about market share.

WotC is one of the few companies competing in multiple products and so you can't just compare book sales. Furthermore, Essentials is a product aimed outside (though useful to) the current market. Again, you can't compare traditional demand measures because nobody else has Target/Wal-mart sales and the population will not likely, at first, be in the FLGS. Finally, WotC has focused heavily in the digital format which necessarily will not be seen by the distributors or the FLGS.

Yeah, it looks fuzzy from the supply chain perspective, but I bet the old supply chain represents a shrinking percentage of sales.

Doesn't Essentials *replace* the three core books? I know they don't even *have* the core books at my Chapters anymore...they just have Essentials and the red box. Of course, Chapters is by no means a vendor of a complete D&D product line.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

Personally I love that they go through stuff that doesn't work well and fix it with errata. I much prefer taking the time to check for errata than to play a game that doesn't work well.

I don't think the problem is whether or not they're looking for errors. What people might be griping about is the volume of it. If there's too much errata, then it's an indicator they didn't build/test properly before publishing. And, given the rules are codified in physical books that we buy and hold in our hands, errata is a pain in the ... Either you have to carry around printouts and remember which printouts contain which errata, or you have to fill your books with sticky notes, or mark them up with pen or whatever. Or wait until the errata is codified in a new print run, and buy the same books all over again.

That having been said, people likely forget how much errata 3E had. I don't remember how much there was, but I remember like 20 variants of Polymorph, for instance.

Banshee

 

[Shemeska]

You mean the Essentials products that were an announced part of the business plan when 4e first came out?

I don't recall them being part of the announced plans at launch. I do however very much recall them being rushed into development on a shorter than normal timetable, which rather suggests they were added late in response to changes in management whim or market research rather than being something planned well in advance.

 

[Azgulor]

So Paizo's taken a chunk out of WotC off-the-shelf market share. Well, so what?

Isn't the fact that WotC's focusing on DDI and the subscription format make this a fait accompli? It just makes logical sense. They're voluntarily giving up publishing market share, because they make more money via DDI subscriptions than they do for hardcover book sales.

This doesn't mean WotC's in trouble... it doesn't mean they need to find ways to "win back" the disenfranchised... it just means they are changing their means of distribution (much to the chagrin of the game sellers, whom I'm sure would rather keep the sales of WotC products as they probably made the sellers a good chunk of change.)

Assuming this post wasn't meant as sarcasm...

This is like global warming "science": If it's hot, it's global warming. If it's cold, it's global warming. If it's dry... If it's wet... (And, no, I'm not saying global warming isn't happening, I'm saying the "science" being used to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt doesn't meet the scientific method criteria of most 9th grade science classes. To avoid violating the politics rule, I'll leave the analogy there.)

4e is #1 on Amazon. See? Of course, 4e is outselling Pathfinder.

Pathfinder is taking book sales away from 4e? Of course they are, but only because WotC ceded that ground in favor of the more lucrative online subscription model.

C'mon, get real. Companies like to add revenue streams. They don't replace them, especially if they are their traditional bread-n-butter, unless they have to. Electronic vs. print, for a property like D&D, should largely be a matter of format -- the content should be consistent. So WotC's electronic endeavors shouldn't impact the quality or success of their print products.

Now if WotC comes out and says "we're abandoning print b/c our electronic revenues are 2x, 3x, or some other multiplier greater than their book sales then it's a rational business transformation. What evidence (slight & often anecdotal, I'll admit) exists today, however, paints a far less rosy picture.

 

[Zil]

Something else interesting to ponder: If you check out the Amazon top-selling RPGs right now, Paizo's Bestiary 2 is at #1. The Pathfinder Core book is at #3. The current top selling 4e book is at #6. The Player's Handbook (4e) is at #8, outperforming the Redbox which is at #9.

Similar results for the Canadian amazon games list with Pathfinder #1 and #2 and #3 (Core, Bestiary 2, and Advanced Players Guide) - at least for this hour. An hour ago it was #1, #2 and #4. I wonder if there is any way to actually track Amazon sales ranking longer term instead of just these hourly snapshots.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Personally I love that they go through stuff that doesn't work well and fix it with errata. I much prefer taking the time to check for errata than to play a game that doesn't work well.

A good publisher certainly does this but the bulk of such effort is usually done before the product is released.

Not to say that products are expected to be 100% error free or anything but the sloppy levels of editing I have seen in some 4E products are truly embarrassing for a company of WOTC's stature.

It is all well and good to let people tinker with your playtest ideas and make adjustments based upon feedback just don't peddle your science experiments as finished product. Many gamers enjoy buying new products and also like it when game companies listen to thier feedback. The thanks the fans get for all that dedication should be a finished product that rocks once they are asked to pay money for the result.

Selling devoted fans playtest drafts, just so you can sell them the finished versions later as well is a pretty crappy way to treat the people who care enough about the products to put in the effort to improve them.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Selling devoted fans playtest drafts, just so you can sell them the finished versions later as well is a pretty crappy way to treat the people who care enough about the products to put in the effort to improve them.

That's quite bad enough, and all too common besides.

Sometimes, it is even worse than that.

For example, 3.5 was planned from the outset. As was, I have no doubt whatsoever, 4.5.

Yes, yes: "Essentials". Whatever.

These things take time to plan and get ready for release. It seems... *unlikely*, let's just say , that folks in WotC were unaware of 4.5 being underway, at the same time their mouthpiece was claiming that such a thing was not to be.

"Fool me once (...)", eh?

 

[Wayside]

When I hear "digital offerings," I hear PDF or online subscriber content, neither of which will bring customers into the store or put an additional dollar in my pocket.

I actually laughed out loud at this.

 

[shadzar]

I actually laughed out loud at this.

Because it finally shows that WotC is a fair weather friend and will only be there for the store so long as the stores have something to give them back in return.

WotC...

I see your true colors shining through, so don't be afraid to let them show, your true colors....