The fragmentation of the D&D community... was it inevitable?

Like 4th edition, New Coke was an unneeded change that did nothing for the product. People didn't like the change. The taste wasn't what people wanted...

You may read the history of it at your leisure. Blind tastes tests, without brand names, showed that New Coke beat both Pepsi and Coke's classic formula, and they did it with pretty solid statistics, too, from what I have seen.

So, while we could bicker over whether the change was "needed" (that is subjective, not objective - whose needs are we talking about?), it is clear that the taste is what they preferred.

As you said - what they didn't like is the change. The flavor wasn't the issue, the change was the issue. How dare they change Coke?!?

Never mind that Coke had been losing market share in a time when overall soft drink consumption was rising - the public demonstrated with their dollars that they didn't actually want more of the old Coke, but then objected when Coke changed to match their desires!

The fact of the matter is that producing good products and marketing them is not easy or simple.. What the customer wants/needs, what they say they want, and what they will accept/buy can be three different things.
 

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You may read the history of it at your leisure. Blind tastes tests, without brand names, showed that New Coke beat both Pepsi and Coke's classic formula, and they did it with pretty solid statistics, too, from what I have seen.

So, while we could bicker over whether the change was "needed" (that is subjective, not objective - whose needs are we talking about?), it is clear that the taste is what they preferred.

As you said - what they didn't like is the change. The flavor wasn't the issue, the change was the issue. How dare they change Coke?!?

Never mind that Coke had been losing market share in a time when overall soft drink consumption was rising - the public demonstrated with their dollars that they didn't actually want more of the old Coke, but then objected when Coke changed to match their desires!

The fact of the matter is that producing good products and marketing them is not easy or simple.. What the customer wants/needs, what they say they want, and what they will accept/buy can be three different things.

But you are still wrong. New Coke and WotC were using self-selecting surveys. They didn't take proper samples.

Like how those on WotC site starts of will "Do you play 4th edition currently?" You answer no and are met with "Thank you for taking our survey." They discounted anything that might be a reason to see if this person maybe just didn't have a group, was to busy to play right now, they only wanted info form a specific group and targetted that group. The sample size was not random, they targetted with New Coke and 4th edition who they wanted to sample, and assumed that was representative of the whole, and found out they were wrong. Just as you are.

I trusted Coke as I am one that ended up switching to Pepsi because of New Coke. I bought their new product, and drank it, and returned it to the store because it tasted like [insert things not appropriate for the weak of stomach]. It wasn't because it was changed, but because the change itself was bad, and the taste was bad.

For some misguided reason, you sem to be thinking that people dislike change. I admit, you have no right to come in my house and start moving stuff around and can do whatever you want with yours. But when you are selling a product, there must be a reason for the change, thus the other thread...

Again this reason should be based not on keeping some employees job that is supposed to come up with things like new recipes, but in something the consumer would want. The consumer didn't want New Coke, not for just your blinders-on reason, but many just didn't like the taste. You can try to spin it anyway you want to try to blame the consumer for not bowing down to your whims, but I am not some idiot and know I have the right to spend my money where I want to, and you have no right to claim it, unless your product is just that [EXPLETIVE] GOOD!

Which brings us back to trying to force people to accept change for no reason, simply NO.

You want people to accept your product, you don't hold them down and force it down their throat and threaten them in any way to do so, you kiss their butt while actually offering them a decent product.

Many examples I could go into about this, but all the best are political related.

Why did PDF take over for RTF? It wasn't because it was forced on people like the newest version of Windows, but because its performed what people wanted, both cunsomer and company.

Why was there an option for a Playstation/Nintendo controller without the "rumble" feature? Because not everyone wanted it.

If what you are trying to allude to is correct, then their would be no choices in the market for various versions of things and every business would have just one version because they are capable of forcing people to jsut accept any change and thrown their money at it. This does NOT work, and can evidently be seen with the fragmentation of the D&D community where everyone does not jsut buy and play 4th edition, and WotC is not succeeding to be on the top with it as Pathfinder has taken it by storm.

Their tactics and business model (wow there is a thread on that too, how closely related so many recent threads are) failed because it tried to force a needles change on people.

Needless is subjective, YES; and that just shows how your method doesn't work, because each person has a right to make the choices for themselves, rather than live in your world, where they are forced to take what they are given.

Ergo fragmentation based on the subjective tastes of the consumer, some of which are based on how the product is demonstrated and presented to the consumer.

EDIT: Classic Coke's return did not work for me as it wasn't the same (yes I had cleansed my palette before trying it, and since it has never returned to what it was) and I stuck with Pepsi because the changes in the process to make the New Coke formula prevented returning to the original recip and process, and throwing all those changes out would have ruined the company, so their risk and attempt to force a change, cause their loss of customer.
 

A lot of people talk about a rift opening up in the tabletop community with the introduction of Fourth Edition. And it's safe to say that when 4e was introduced there was a split as some people jumped on board with the new edition and others preferred to stick with 3.x or upgrade to Pathfinder. How deep this rift was is not really important - we have no idea what percentage did one or the other. And of course there were players of the classic editions who skipped 3 and 4, or even who got back into the game with 4 after skipping 3 entirely.

The point being: there was a fragmentation of the community. Some people liked 3.x, some people liked 4e, a few liked neither.

Who is to blame? Is it the reactionaries who refused to switch to a more modern game system? Or the designers who came along and tried to cram a radically different system down everyone's throats?

Or was it just inevitable that the community would fragment no matter what? I think maybe it was. Here's my reasoning:

Classic D&D is kinda like The Beatles. Everybody liked The Beatles in 1965 because... what was the alternative? They were pretty much the only thing going in rock n' roll.

In the new millennium, pretty much everything is fragmented. There couldn't be another The Beatles, because people have so many options. You could listen to The Next Big Thing on the radio. Or you could go out and download the new mp3 from your favorite bluegrass-funk-reggae band which you found on Pandora. Or you could get a laptop and a MIDI connector and record your own music.

It's the same story everywhere. People don't just like movies anymore. They like Japanese horror films. Or machima. Or creating Lego reenactments of movies and uploading them to YouTube. Fragmentation and diversification is the story of pretty much every other entertainment media in the last ten years.

Why exactly do we expect D&D to be different?

THAC0. Skills. Multiclassing. Tactical combat. Vancian magic. Random tables. D20s. Dungeon crawling. Which of these mean D&D to you? In 1985 you had a handful of options for tabletop roleplaying. Now you probably have more options even just counting games that could reasonably be called D&D. If you've got probably a dozen editions and sub-editions, depending on how you count. Throw in Pathfinder and retro-clones...

Ask ten different people to describe their perfect version of D&D, you'll get eleven different answers. There's so many different kinds of people that play, and in so many different ways. Some people want the game to be as digital as possible, so they can play over the internet. Some people want a disconnected game that uses pen and paper and is printed on books. People with kids and little free time want a simpler game. People with more of the above want a strict simulationist game with rules covering every situation.

With this in mind, I have three questions:
1) Is it possible to create an edition of D&D that could largely satisfy 90% of the player base?
2) If it's not possible now, was it possible in 2007, before 4e was released?
3) If it's not possible (now or then), what should Wizards, or whoever owns the D&D IP in the future, do about it?

I am new to these forums and this is my first post so please be gentle.

Is a group i have always believed that role-players are a fractured group. There has always been alot of diversity in rpg products, systems, and game worlds and this is without the subjective way that rpg's can be played. It leads to nearly and infinite way that people can enjoy the hobby.

Now with the fracturing of D&D with 4E in my own opinion is that they called it D&D. 3.5 and 4E are completely different games. Alot of people invested heavily in 3.5 and to have the system stoped and replaced within a decade with a new system seams a bit counter productive on behalf of WoTC. But i believe if they kept supporting 3.5 and called 4E Ad&d i think the rift would be lesend a huge degree.

I dont belive it is possible to create a game to satisfy 90% of the D&D community. There has always been rifts in the D&D community everytime a new version is released. It happened when ad&d was reseased, it happened when 2nd edition was released and it has happened for 3rd and 4th Editions. I have no insight on what WotC will do but it is possible they will make a 5th edition in the next few years, in which we will see another rift take place between 4th and 5th editions.
 

Re: New Coke

The reasons for it's failure were manifold. But the identity/change issue was one of the major ones.

Interpretation of taste tests results aside, there were people who were anonymously interviewed who said they preferred the flavor of New Coke...but that'd be "damned if they'd tell Coca-Cola that." Similar reports abound.

IOW, the flavor was NOT the issue, the issue was they didn't want a replacement for their favorite. As a supplementary product, New Coke might have been a great product.

And many people felt the same way about 4Ed- nice product, but not as a replacement for 3.5Ed.
 

But i believe if they kept supporting 3.5 and called 4E Ad&d i think the rift would be lesend a huge degree.

Except that 3rd and 3.5 were built off of AD&D, while 4th tried to get back to D&D....Welcome aboard!

Straight jackets are to the left, life jackets are to the right, pick which one, or both, you feel you will need to use the most often. :lol:
 

But you are still wrong. New Coke and WotC were using self-selecting surveys. They didn't take proper samples.

My understanding is that they did take proper samples, that their research was properly done - thus my comment on good statistics. If your understanding is otherwise, we won't ever agree.

And basically, it ends there. The rest of the analysis is moot if we don't agree on that one point.
 

My understanding is that they did take proper samples, that their research was properly done - thus my comment on good statistics. If your understanding is otherwise, we won't ever agree.

And basically, it ends there. The rest of the analysis is moot if we don't agree on that one point.

And so it ends.

I don't take anyone else's word for squat. I eat food if it doesn't smell bad first, and if it looks ok, not because Waiter X offers it as the special of the day. The only thing special about it is today's price for it, or it is only available today.

Likewise in regards to these samples, show me the data, and I will ascertain for myself what the results are, if the samples are decent ones, etc.

I know, as well everyone I knew at the time, thought New Coke tasted like crap.

Scientists can claim all day that X happens via their data, but unless they show that data, they are just ignored, likewise these so-called claims of proof without data should similarly be ignored, because you can find and pay someone to say anything for you as your "proof".

I say both failed in doing proper research, but the case still remains; you do NOT try to force a change on your consumer.

From what you are arguing about New Coke's failure it was because they tried to force a change, so obviously you have provided proof for my argument there, as any level of "working to get people to embrace change" is proven by your New Coke example as a failure.

So you are right about New Coke, which means I am right about never trying to force changes onto your customers?

or

You are right about forcing changes, and I am right about New Coke?

You don't get your cake and get to eat it too.

So we will have to be fragmented on the issue it seems, such as happens with anything that allows for subjective tastes of individuals. ;)
 

My understanding is that they did take proper samples, that their research was properly done - thus my comment on good statistics. If your understanding is otherwise, we won't ever agree.

My understanding is that they did pretty good on following statistical procedure...and despite their rigor, their stats still overrepresented those who preferred New Coke.

In addition, they never asked the crucial question of whether they would buy the new drink instead of the old one.
 

D&D communities are fragmented because some people liked New Coke and others didn't...ok now that that is over, can we get back to it based on D&D itself?

:(
 

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