What about making them hit against flat footed? Once fired, you can't really dodge a bullet. Make it hit vs flat footed within like 2 range increments? But after that, if the person you're shooting is paying any attention, he can duck or something to try and get out of the line of fire. Also make it to where you can't sneak attack with them, even though it's against flat footed?
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Ultimate Combat Playtest: Gunslinger, Ninja, Samurai
- Thread starter pawsplay
- Start date
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
Yes, the myth about the 'black pajamas' is a Kabuki theater thing. A kabuki theater has no back stage area. The stage handlers wear those black pajama outfits so they are not well seen while moving stage sets around. While the audience can certainly see them, the intent is that they aren't really there - they are 'invisible'. The actors wear garish outfits, much more colorful than their equivalent in real world society.
In the 15th century one particular Kabuki play introduced a ninja as an assassin used against some noble lord in the story line. The actor representing the 'ninja' wore the black stage handlers suit, so as to be kept out of sight/out of mind of the audience, until the moment that he pulled the mask off his face, drew a sword and slew the noble on stage.
This was an OMG moment for the audience, for their assumption that the guy in the black suit was a stage handler and not an actor representing a ninja. This is where the black suit idea originally came from. It was not a ninja standard outfit - of course ninja were known, but little was known about them even by normal Japanese at that time.
Ever since that one play, black pajamas have been used to represent ninja in all media since then. Its a media thing, not an historic thing.
As you mentioned ninja typically dress in disguise whether as a peasant, a monk or other outfit so he can blend in with those around him while he is on mission. So a ninja should be wearing something normal.
If you were caught not on stage wearing a black stage handlers outfit, you would stand out as something that doesn't belong there, and most likely slain on sight by a samurai viewing him. If he was instead dressed as a peasant, he could say, he was lost, looking for his pet, or using the bathroom and might escape with his life.
I'm familiar with Turnbull's work, but most critics consider much of his work to be poorly researched. Some things he got right, but much was way off. There are samurai sites online that regularly consider his work as empty, and not worth relying upon.
I'm half Japanese and have studied all things Japanese for the last 30 years. I have a cousin who is a history professor at the University of Tokyo, and I regularly use him for my research. I trust my sources versus most other sources available.
Edit: Japanese never had chain-mail as an armor type. Ninja wore 'leather armor' if they wore armor at all.
GP
pawsplay
Hero
I assume you meant "ninja" and not Japanese. Japanese wore lots of chainmail.
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
Sorry, yes, I meant Ninja did not wear chain armor, the Japanese had kusari katabira, which was worn primarily during the Edo Period 1600 to 1868, though to a lesser extent during an earlier 1300's period.
Since my setting though fictional and not Japan, it follows a similar historical track of the earlier 1200 to 1500 period when it was used to a much lesser degree, which would be before the Edo Period. Kaidan won't have a Sengoku nor Edo Period similarity to Japan in its future.
Since ninja were always 'special operatives' specializing in spying, sabotage, assassination, scouting and other covert activity. The wearing of armor was almost non-existent - they were never intended as a fighting force. Combat was circumstantial never something intentional, as that wouldn't be very clandestine. At best they hit and run, not stand trading blows in mortal combat, that was not their purpose.
Since my setting though fictional and not Japan, it follows a similar historical track of the earlier 1200 to 1500 period when it was used to a much lesser degree, which would be before the Edo Period. Kaidan won't have a Sengoku nor Edo Period similarity to Japan in its future.
Since ninja were always 'special operatives' specializing in spying, sabotage, assassination, scouting and other covert activity. The wearing of armor was almost non-existent - they were never intended as a fighting force. Combat was circumstantial never something intentional, as that wouldn't be very clandestine. At best they hit and run, not stand trading blows in mortal combat, that was not their purpose.
pawsplay
Hero
I tend to think of ninjas as either guys in black pajamas learning sorcery from forest demons, or as samurai spies planting black powder bombs in toilets. I am familiar with the 1980s Western action movie vesion, but it doesn't resonate as strongly with me, simply because it doesn't run as deep. I have sympathy for people who learned everything they know about ninja from American Ninja, but it's really difficult for me to talk to people on that level about what I think a ninja is. Some folks on the old Torg list were so sure ninja had something to do with Zen and mysticism and such, and balked at my suggestion that supenatural ninja, to the Japanese, were more likely to be theurgists, alchemists, and perhaps even cursed by demons. I'm fine with the "samurai of the night" archetype, but in that case, I think hewing more closely to the specops model feels better than trying to come up with something that jibes with TMNT and yet fits into a feudal fantasy setting.
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
I'll be fully tackling the shinobi archetypes for Kaidan soon, which will fill special roles for bards, monks, rangers, rogues and sorcerers, with the possibility of building a Ninja prestige class as well (though I'm generally not fond of PrC's).
However, the next class I'm working on with its own clandestine nuance are Metsuki - shogunal/state religion secret police which will be an Inquisitor archetype. The new ninja class is just giving me some ideas on those lines.
I just finished my Yojimbo (ranger archetype samurai), and my full Yakuza class lineup, including Machi-yakko (non-spellcasting inquisitor archetype), Hinin Bushi (fighter archetype), Bakushi (bard archetype) and the Bakuto (rogue gambler archetype.)
Its been fun development so far!
GP
However, the next class I'm working on with its own clandestine nuance are Metsuki - shogunal/state religion secret police which will be an Inquisitor archetype. The new ninja class is just giving me some ideas on those lines.
I just finished my Yojimbo (ranger archetype samurai), and my full Yakuza class lineup, including Machi-yakko (non-spellcasting inquisitor archetype), Hinin Bushi (fighter archetype), Bakushi (bard archetype) and the Bakuto (rogue gambler archetype.)
Its been fun development so far!
GP
Last edited:
Winterthorn
Monster Manager
@ gamerprinter: Your efforts appear interesting! 
But I have to wonder: is medieval Japan over represented in fantasy RPGs? There are great movies on Chinese and Koren heros, yet I've seen little in fantasy RPGs that touch on asian themes outside of Japan. Hopefully Paizo will address this in the future as they expand upon Golarion.
But I have to wonder: is medieval Japan over represented in fantasy RPGs? There are great movies on Chinese and Koren heros, yet I've seen little in fantasy RPGs that touch on asian themes outside of Japan. Hopefully Paizo will address this in the future as they expand upon Golarion.
re
No martial arts for the ninja and no swordsmanship for the samurai automatically kill the class for me. If Pathfinder doesn't want to do the class justice, then why bother making them?
It is on historical record that hand to hand fighting was an important part of training for the ninja and swordsmanship for the samurai. Failing to incorporate that element into both classes is moving away from Pathfinder closer adherence to simulation versus balance for class design. I don't care for it.
Do the classes right or don't do them at all.
I don't mind when Pathfinder adds to a class for world flavor. But when they fail to properly model the basics of an archetype, it makes the class hollow and false.
Why do people love ninjas and samurais? Just for the name?
No.
A big reason the samurai is loved is the katana. The class should focus on a two combat paths: sword mastery and archery mastery, coupled with mounted combat. That's the base samurai besides all the flavor material. That should be what the class focuses on.
Now for the ninja it is martial arts, acrobatics, and assassination. That is the classic ninja.
A ninja should be designed as though it were a monk/rogue with different weapons useable with the flurry. It should not be designed without martial arts as part of the class and the common weapons associated with the ninja.
A ninja is more about variety than sheer combat power. Part of that variety should be incorporating usable and effective martial arts.
Any ninja designed without incorporating their hand to hand style and weapons into the common class path is a failure by Pathfinder, period, end of story. Utter and complete failure.
Just like any samurai that doesn't incorporate the sword fighting techniques such such as iajutsu and the the precision cutting or the extraordinary mounted archery is as two different optional paths is a failure of the samurai.
It's very easy to design both classes as their combat focus is known by anyone who even slightly studies either archetype. I hope Paizo does not produce a fail ninja like WotC did.
There are a few things a real ninja should be able to do:
1. Fight in hand to hand as effectively as with weapons.
2. Grapple an opponent to silence them and choke them until they die.
3. Use poison
Both of those are easy to incorporate into the class without making it overpowered using the bonus feat system.
DO NOT FAIL PAIZO!!!
A ninja without martial arts aka hand to hand combat is not a ninja to anyone that loves the archetype.
A samurai that can't draw his sword and cut super fast and with extreme precision or plant an arrow into a bullseye from horseback isn't a samurai. They don't necessarily need to do both, but one or the other.
Once again I say, DO NOT FAIL PAIZO!!
On either of these archetypes.
For those of us that will use them if they are done right, we demand martial arts for the ninja and swordsmanship or archery for the samurai.
Get it done. Don't mess up the two best known archetypes of the Asian world.
I will say it again hoping that this information gets to Paizo.
Do not make a ninja without martial arts of you are will have failed. The most attractive part of playing a ninja for anyone that loves them is fighting hand to hand on a stealthy assassination mission. That's the fun of a ninja. Being able to stealthily sneak in, choke out some guard with your arm or garrote, and keep on going is what playing a ninja is all about. That's the fun of it.
Don't mess it up. Please, for the love of the gaming gods, don't mess up the ninja like WotC did. No martial arts is an utter failure by Paizo when it comes to the ninja.
No martial arts for ninja = failure
If your game designers can look into their hearts and design a ninja that can't fight hand to hand, they don't really love ninjas. I don't care if the ninja is imbalanced, what I care about is if the ninja is done right.
It's up to us DMs to control class access and it's up to you Paizo to provide us with a ninja that fits what all us ninja lovers dream of playing, at least at the most basic level.
Don't make a "ninja in name only" like WotC did. Make a real darn ninja according to what we love about them.
Martial arts must be included.
I cannot state enough how important the ability to effectively hand to hand fight means to the ninja class. You better incorporate it or I will spit on your ninja and say to my players "Sure you can play that piece of garbage class so called 'ninja'. Don't sell me that is anything like a real ninja. He's some stupid class given the name 'ninja', but doesn't much represent the archetype well."
Get the ninja right, Paizo. For the love of the gaming gods, get the ninja right.
No martial arts for the ninja and no swordsmanship for the samurai automatically kill the class for me. If Pathfinder doesn't want to do the class justice, then why bother making them?
It is on historical record that hand to hand fighting was an important part of training for the ninja and swordsmanship for the samurai. Failing to incorporate that element into both classes is moving away from Pathfinder closer adherence to simulation versus balance for class design. I don't care for it.
Do the classes right or don't do them at all.
I don't mind when Pathfinder adds to a class for world flavor. But when they fail to properly model the basics of an archetype, it makes the class hollow and false.
Why do people love ninjas and samurais? Just for the name?
No.
A big reason the samurai is loved is the katana. The class should focus on a two combat paths: sword mastery and archery mastery, coupled with mounted combat. That's the base samurai besides all the flavor material. That should be what the class focuses on.
Now for the ninja it is martial arts, acrobatics, and assassination. That is the classic ninja.
A ninja should be designed as though it were a monk/rogue with different weapons useable with the flurry. It should not be designed without martial arts as part of the class and the common weapons associated with the ninja.
A ninja is more about variety than sheer combat power. Part of that variety should be incorporating usable and effective martial arts.
Any ninja designed without incorporating their hand to hand style and weapons into the common class path is a failure by Pathfinder, period, end of story. Utter and complete failure.
Just like any samurai that doesn't incorporate the sword fighting techniques such such as iajutsu and the the precision cutting or the extraordinary mounted archery is as two different optional paths is a failure of the samurai.
It's very easy to design both classes as their combat focus is known by anyone who even slightly studies either archetype. I hope Paizo does not produce a fail ninja like WotC did.
There are a few things a real ninja should be able to do:
1. Fight in hand to hand as effectively as with weapons.
2. Grapple an opponent to silence them and choke them until they die.
3. Use poison
Both of those are easy to incorporate into the class without making it overpowered using the bonus feat system.
DO NOT FAIL PAIZO!!!
A ninja without martial arts aka hand to hand combat is not a ninja to anyone that loves the archetype.
A samurai that can't draw his sword and cut super fast and with extreme precision or plant an arrow into a bullseye from horseback isn't a samurai. They don't necessarily need to do both, but one or the other.
Once again I say, DO NOT FAIL PAIZO!!
On either of these archetypes.
For those of us that will use them if they are done right, we demand martial arts for the ninja and swordsmanship or archery for the samurai.
Get it done. Don't mess up the two best known archetypes of the Asian world.
I will say it again hoping that this information gets to Paizo.
Do not make a ninja without martial arts of you are will have failed. The most attractive part of playing a ninja for anyone that loves them is fighting hand to hand on a stealthy assassination mission. That's the fun of a ninja. Being able to stealthily sneak in, choke out some guard with your arm or garrote, and keep on going is what playing a ninja is all about. That's the fun of it.
Don't mess it up. Please, for the love of the gaming gods, don't mess up the ninja like WotC did. No martial arts is an utter failure by Paizo when it comes to the ninja.
No martial arts for ninja = failure
If your game designers can look into their hearts and design a ninja that can't fight hand to hand, they don't really love ninjas. I don't care if the ninja is imbalanced, what I care about is if the ninja is done right.
It's up to us DMs to control class access and it's up to you Paizo to provide us with a ninja that fits what all us ninja lovers dream of playing, at least at the most basic level.
Don't make a "ninja in name only" like WotC did. Make a real darn ninja according to what we love about them.
Martial arts must be included.
I cannot state enough how important the ability to effectively hand to hand fight means to the ninja class. You better incorporate it or I will spit on your ninja and say to my players "Sure you can play that piece of garbage class so called 'ninja'. Don't sell me that is anything like a real ninja. He's some stupid class given the name 'ninja', but doesn't much represent the archetype well."
Get the ninja right, Paizo. For the love of the gaming gods, get the ninja right.
Kaiyanwang
Adventurer
What about taking improved unarmed strike, improved grapple, stunning fist and call it a day?
