4th edition "Black belt DM's Guide": best of the internet

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=84774]surfarcher[/MENTION]

Now that's the kind of post that I was waiting for

The items you've listed for SCs are good. I'd also add these:

• The pros and cons of hidden and announced SCs
• Thought processes for designing SCs
• SCs as a "tracking and accounting" mechanic
• SCs: More than just skills!

Great points, and you helped me remember I want to address the "one size doesn't fit all" point. But can you explain what you mean by a "tracking and accounting mechanic" and how the article would be helpful for DMs?

I didn't get much out of Charles Ryan's PDF except the idea of turning points and increasing DCs (which I'm not convinced improves anything beyond changing the math). That said, he is right on about turning points, just the idea merits more than a few sentences! Well, in it goes to my big list.

But you rpg.net thread is really interesting! I can tell you've put a great deal of though into SCs, but what about your in-play experience. I'm only halfway thru the thread so I'll respond more when I've finished the whole thing.

As for "grind" I'd add:

• When is grind an issue?
• The elements of grind
• For the DM side I'd lift stalker0's anti-grind system piecemeal
• For the player's side have a peek at two of my campaign wiki Combat Notes and Rewards System

I'd love to get Stalker0 share his latest thoughts on "grind"; I appreciate how his thinking continues to evolve and doesn't remain fixated on one way. I'll drop by that thread and PM him...

I haven't seen those player side speed tips like you suggest making much impact on "grind" in play, have you?

Just my thoughts.

That rpg.net post is metal! And I appreciate your succinct organized post, makes it much easier for me.

 

[surfarcher]

Now that's the kind of post that I was waiting for

Glad I didn't disappoint

Great points, and you helped me remember I want to address the "one size doesn't fit all" point. But can you explain what you mean by a "tracking and accounting mechanic" and how the article would be helpful for DMs?

I believe that the value in the SC mechanic is on the DMs side, not the players side. I believe the strength in SCs is in how they define and objective and allow you to determine whether it is achieved. I think if you play with that strength then SCs can be incredibly useful and energising for your campaign.

I didn't get much out of Charles Ryan's PDF except the idea of turning points and increasing DCs (which I'm not convinced improves anything beyond changing the math). That said, he is right on about turning points, just the idea merits more than a few sentences! Well, in it goes to my big list.

Pretty sure I said it was interesting, not a complete revol;ution To be honest I actually believe that the core SC mechanic is perfect and pretty everything. I just think it's just misundertood by many.

But you rpg.net thread is really interesting! I can tell you've put a great deal of though into SCs, but what about your in-play experience. I'm only halfway thru the thread so I'll respond more when I've finished the whole thing.

i look forward to that! Our in play experience has been overwhelmingly positive. I only ever announce the first SC in a campaign but the major highlights of my campaigns have always been Challenges... I seem to have somehow cottoned onto them from the get-go. Go figure.

I'd love to get Stalker0 share his latest thoughts on "grind"; I appreciate how his thinking continues to evolve and doesn't remain fixated on one way. I'll drop by that thread and PM him...

100% agreement here.

I haven't seen those player side speed tips like you suggest making much impact on "grind" in play, have you?

Actually I have. I see my players making a conscious effort to be efficient and fast on their turn. They want those crit chips!

That rpg.net post is metal! And I appreciate your succinct organized post, makes it much easier for me.

Glad to help! I think I said before that SCs seem to be the main area in which I can help others. And I'd be glad to help a wider audience. I think it's too bad WotC hasn't more directly addressed the issue in Dungeon or Dragon.

Cheers!

 

[Iron Sky]

This is related more towards the title of the thread instead of the content, but you might call this thread "Master's GM Guide" or something in spite of the hidden redundancy. Most serious martial artists that I know of consider black belt to be the level when you know enough of the art that you can really start to learn instead of just getting all the basics figured out.

Masters (or even better, grand masters) are the ones who have, well, presumably mastered their art.

Not that you wouldn't ignore what a black belt had to say if you were just starting a martial art, but the masters are the ones that really know what they are doing in both depth and breadth.

Slightly OT, but FYI.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=60965]Iron Sky[/MENTION]

Well we know what Mr. Miyagi has to say about belts!

You raise a good point, but how many "master" DMs are out there? And masters in 4th edition at that?
What about something more neutral like the "4e DM Cyclopedia"?

 

[Iron Sky]

It would be interesting to see how many "master DMs" there are out there and what would make one qualify as one?

You could just call it the "4ENcyclopedia" - 4th edition/ENWorld/Encyclopedia.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Well, Dungeonmastering is compiling rules & story to a enjoyable thing, so to especially focus on the 4e thing i.e. rules / monster design could only be of value if it´s story driven. I play essentially to tell tales with groups of peaple. So , yes 4e is also a tactial chess like boardgame, but it comes only alive if you describe the manoevers you do with your "chess" figures. So, even if it´s worth to spend time on mechanical details, it´s not the main focus of the game.

Without story it would be a sole statistical game, where the math is the most important thing, this might appeal the power mongers, but i think even they imagine themselfs as characters who like to change the gaming world. I understand that this is a complex thematic, i.e. sorting out where to start and where to end with the advices.

But at least if you say the topic is mechanical details of 4e , what help is there ? Just the house rules ? Adding props ? I have seen a lot of good advise already with the pipe cleaners, as markers for AOE effects, with bottle rings to mark status conditions on miniatures, the projector as a tool for battlemaps etc etc .. This are already very valid thing´s which is worth to consider.

I got also to a regional con to see other DM´s style of play, and to see if i could copy some of their ideas. (Initative Order with letters placed over the DM screen was a good idea , i taken from there.) But never the less, please consider also to TOC information ressources which are story driven, rules without story are empty.

General Advices are system independend, but you could focus on the fantasy thematic which spares a lot of trouble a Dungeonmaster for Shadowrun has. Bringing alive a Matrix, Astral World, Fantasy & SciFi Elements which is compellling all at once is very very hard, if you dont just put up standard criminal activity as one shot adventures. Ok, D&D has now a similar thing with the Shadwofell, Feywild, but you dont have to cope with this all at once, you could chunk it in seperate adventures.

I read currently a forum of an old RPG , where they complain a lot about the avilablity of the many sourcebook´s , the more material there is where everyone has to agree about, the more peaple start to fight , which is the most recent interpretation of the fantasy world. It take´s away the control from the World Designer DM to the Sourcebook avilable to Player´s which try to clinge to this books to gain some advantage in the fantasy World via argumenting : this is official, it has to be this way... So this might be a system specific issue, but i think it´s the same for all old fantasy world´s the source of material could be overwhelming.

To bring this post to an end, yes it´s hard to draw a line, which information is worth and which not. So i would say, if what you like is 4e, stick to it, it´s your project, and you shall have fun doing it. But if you like to have it "living" bring up discussion where peaple like to brag about, so this will contribute also quite a lot. Probably keep the discussion in EN WORLD, so there will be more participants and contributers.

Okay, i see the rules which shall backup the process of designing encounters. Essentially scripting encounter´s and tie set back conditions to it, or to a sequence of encounters. You rest, but now the "dungeon" is alarmed type of thing. Well this could be formulated, and is also for sure a good idea, especially if you increase the set back´s not just to "reinforcement" but also onto other ascpects of the terrain, or what is if the opposition is fleeing ? And does not wait untill the mighty (and feared) heros show up to mash the villian up once again ?

The encounter could change to a chase, but the battelmap does not allow this, so it could change to a skill challenge, how do you manage this transition effectively ? Could the clever shortcut, and streetwise overcome your lower street attribute ? If i continue this, way, then i see me still to the rule´s lawyering aspect, of the game, but i agree that there shall be a standard term (like villan or antagonist) to forge general aspects to get a common sense. Well, i hope you will put up a link soon, so i could post things i found intresting, probaly you will pick things up.

Just thought it would be a public service to add paragraph breaks.