Brainstorming on spell fixes

[Dannyalcatraz]

In another thread, I posted:

There are all kinds of things you can do to balance Vancian magic more if you want.

One thing is that you could do level corrections. People often talk about the power of spells like Sleep, etc., and it is probably true that if a spell is on the list of every optimizer's spellcaster, it may be overpowered for its level. So what you do is either raise the spell's level (easy) or break the spell into components and spread them out over several spells (hard).

For the latter, using Sleep as an example, what you could do is make a first level spell that still puts foes to sleep, but doesn't can't affect as many targets. Or is a spell with a duration so that it can only affect one target per round, and the caster can hit multiple targets over time. And then, you make similar spells that are ramped up in power, encompassing a re-leveled version of the first spell, but also new, more powerful versions as well.

In conjunction with the above, you can expand the spell chart over more levels, as 4Ed did. Besides the benefit of being more intuitive, it gives you better odds for correctly pegging a spell's actual power level.

And so forth.

This thread is to brainstorm about and post fixes to spells that are "problematic", "overpowered" and the like, as well as alterations to the Vancian system as a whole, such as a 20 level spell progression for better grouping of spells by power or lesser and greater versions of spells, including lesser/laden versions of spells for systems like Arcana Unearthed/Arcana Evolved.

So, you've seen an off the cuff "fix" for Sleep...what 'cha think? What kind of good ideas have you got whirling around your head?

 

[Empirate]

Sleep isn't among the first two dozen or so spells that need fixing, IMO. It only affects a small area, doesn't affect any but the weakest foes, and takes a full round to cast. In my experience, if you don't use it as a first strike, from hiding, it's hard to pull off great things with Sleep, even at very low levels.


Spells that need fixing (for their level, and for diverse reasons) in my book include, in alphabetical order:

Alter Self [fix: remove the natural armor clause]

Astral Projection [fix: spell ends if the recipient leaves the Astral Plane by any means; OR doesn't make copies of worn and carried items]

Black Tentacles [fix: allow a Reflex save to leave the area un-grappled]

Comprehend Languages [fix: gives a set bonus of +10 to Decipher Script skills instead of auto-deciphering]

Divine Power [fix: remove the ability to cast spells while under the effect of Divine Power]

Enlarge Person [fix: reduce duration to 1 rd/CL, and move to 3rd level]

Entangle [fix: reduce radius to 10'; OR move to 3rd level]

Freedom of Movement [fix: move to 6th level]

Gate [fix: delete the clause "In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level."]

Glitterdust [fix: "Spell Resistance: Yes (blinding only)"]

Knock [fix: adds a set +10 bonus to Open Lock checks]

Mage's/Mordenkainen's Disjunction [fix: does not permanently destroy magic items, but does suppress them for CL rounds]

Magic Circle vs. Evil/etc. [fix: see Protection from Evil, and move to 5th level]

Mind Blank [fix: reduce duration to 10 min/CL]

Mirror Image [fix: move to 3rd level]

Planar Binding line [fix: don't set a HD cap, set a CR cap instead; or use Summon Monster-like tables for call-able creatures]

Protection from Evil/etc. [fix: only protects from possession and mind control originating from creatures of the warded-against alignment, and move to 3rd level]

Polymorph [fix: only allow polymorph subschool spells. Sure, this has been said by WotC, but many groups still allow Polymorph all the same]

Polymorph any Object [fix: there is no fix. This spell must go]

Resist Energy [fix: do not increase the energy resistance at higher CLs]

Shapechange [fix: remove the ability to use the spell-like and supernatural abilities of a creature you shapechange into, and introduce a clause stating that you cannot use any natural spellcasting the creature you shapechange into might have (such as a Planetar's Cleric spellcasting)]

Wall of Stone/Iron [fix: these spells need a duration other than instantaneous, I'm open to suggestions]


What do you think?

 

[Ranes]

Brilliant suggestions.

You could leave the walls with their instantaneous durations and make them higher level.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

How much did these spells change from AD&D 2nd ed. to 3e? I thought that many of these spells were kept the same, except for the ease of spellcasting being disrupted.

Do other people think that many of the problem spells became problems because 3.x upturned how easily spellcasting was disrupted but didn't change the power of the spells? Or were these issues in AD&D also?

 

[anest1s]

Sleep isn't among the first two dozen or so spells that need fixing, IMO. It only affects a small area, doesn't affect any but the weakest foes, and takes a full round to cast. In my experience, if you don't use it as a first strike, from hiding, it's hard to pull off great things with Sleep, even at very low levels.


Spells that need fixing (for their level, and for diverse reasons) in my book include, in alphabetical order:

Alter Self [fix: remove the natural armor clause]

Astral Projection [fix: spell ends if the recipient leaves the Astral Plane by any means; OR doesn't make copies of worn and carried items]

Black Tentacles [fix: allow a Reflex save to leave the area un-grappled]

Comprehend Languages [fix: gives a set bonus of +10 to Decipher Script skills instead of auto-deciphering]

Divine Power [fix: remove the ability to cast spells while under the effect of Divine Power]

Enlarge Person [fix: reduce duration to 1 rd/CL, and move to 3rd level]

Entangle [fix: reduce radius to 10'; OR move to 3rd level]

Freedom of Movement [fix: move to 6th level]

Gate [fix: delete the clause "In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level."]

Glitterdust [fix: "Spell Resistance: Yes (blinding only)"]

Knock [fix: adds a set +10 bonus to Open Lock checks]

Mage's/Mordenkainen's Disjunction [fix: does not permanently destroy magic items, but does suppress them for CL rounds]

Magic Circle vs. Evil/etc. [fix: see Protection from Evil, and move to 5th level]

Mind Blank [fix: reduce duration to 10 min/CL]

Mirror Image [fix: move to 3rd level]

Planar Binding line [fix: don't set a HD cap, set a CR cap instead; or use Summon Monster-like tables for call-able creatures]

Protection from Evil/etc. [fix: only protects from possession and mind control originating from creatures of the warded-against alignment, and move to 3rd level]

Polymorph [fix: only allow polymorph subschool spells. Sure, this has been said by WotC, but many groups still allow Polymorph all the same]

Polymorph any Object [fix: there is no fix. This spell must go]

Resist Energy [fix: do not increase the energy resistance at higher CLs]

Shapechange [fix: remove the ability to use the spell-like and supernatural abilities of a creature you shapechange into, and introduce a clause stating that you cannot use any natural spellcasting the creature you shapechange into might have (such as a Planetar's Cleric spellcasting)]

Wall of Stone/Iron [fix: these spells need a duration other than instantaneous, I'm open to suggestions]


What do you think?

Some of them may be fair...

...but I wouldn't play any kind of spellcaster in a campaign like that

Ok I will reply seriously too:
Freedom of movement is a serious spell for most spellcasters...usually its useful when prepared with metamagic feats too (Still spell etc) for when you are grappled. Which means that if it is level 6...its kinda "thanks but no thanks" spell.

Gate: You are making this more powerful?

Knock: What kind of arcane spellcaster has open lock, to make that +10 useful?

Mirror image is good, it can definitely save a wizards life. But it can be countered by magic missile just too easily. I wouldn't want to cast a 3rd level spell that can be countered by magic missile.

Wall of Stone and Iron: You may be right, but 1h/lvl or something like that isn't much worse than full time/ except it saves time building (when used out of combat). If you feel that you should charge the PCs for building a wall, add material components...

Shapechange doesn't look overpowered to me...but I am not too sure so I wont complain

 

[JamesonCourage]

In another thread, I posted:

This thread is to brainstorm about and post fixes to spells that are "problematic", "overpowered" and the like, as well as alterations to the Vancian system as a whole, such as a 20 level spell progression for better grouping of spells by power or lesser and greater versions of spells, including lesser/laden versions of spells for systems like Arcana Unearthed/Arcana Evolved.

So, you've seen an off the cuff "fix" for Sleep...what 'cha think? What kind of good ideas have you got whirling around your head?

I ran into something similar when making my game. I wanted magicians to be able to do more than mundane could, as they stereotypically can in fantasy. However, giving them that power seriously unbalances them with mundane characters.

My solution was simply longer time for spell slots to recharge. On the low end, I considered one hour of rest (not necessarily sleep) per spell level regained. That 8th level spell you cast? Requires 8 hours of rest. Because of the low magic nature of my setting, it's actually much longer than this. This, however, gives magicians the ability to do what mundane characters cannot while not overpowering them nearly as consistently. Yes, a level 18 cleric would be a hugely formidable opponent if he has all of his spell slots, but if you can do enough hit and run tactics on him, then he slowly fades in power.

Also, I've broken away from pure Vancian spellcasting in my game. You can overchannel, casting spells level 0-4 (low level to high level) without consuming spell slots (and without specializing in it too much).

Just an alternate way to deal with powerful spells without altering too much. Thought I'd throw that out there. Certain spells are still out of line, even with this implemented (Shapechange, etc.)

 

[Empirate]

Some of them may be fair...

...but I wouldn't play any kind of spellcaster in a campaign like that

Ok I will reply seriously too:
Freedom of movement is a serious spell for most spellcasters...usually its useful when prepared with metamagic feats too (Still spell etc) for when you are grappled. Which means that if it is level 6...its kinda "thanks but no thanks" spell.

Gate: You are making this more powerful?

Knock: What kind of arcane spellcaster has open lock, to make that +10 useful?

Mirror image is good, it can definitely save a wizards life. But it can be countered by magic missile just too easily. I wouldn't want to cast a 3rd level spell that can be countered by magic missile.

Wall of Stone and Iron: You may be right, but 1h/lvl or something like that isn't much worse than full time/ except it saves time building (when used out of combat). If you feel that you should charge the PCs for building a wall, add material components...

Shapechange doesn't look overpowered to me...but I am not too sure so I wont complain

Freedom of Movement shuts down too many methods of battlefield control for a simple 4th level, for my taste. Worse, only spellcasters get it (Clerics, actually, and Sorcerers/Wizards via Heart of Water), leaving the mundane behind again. Thus the level increase.

Gate: I'm making it less powerful, in that controlling a single creature with up to double your CL's HD is rather more powerful than I want this spell to be. Leaving out the clause leaves you with only being able to control a creature whose HD do not exceed your CL.

Knock: my fix prevents making the Open Lock skill entirely pointless with a single 2nd level spell. The spell is now still great for sneaky casters, and might help a straight Wizard open a simple lock, but doesn't obviate the need for skill ranks to open a door (straight Wizards can still Shatter it, if they want to...).
The Comprehend Languages fix I proposed goes along similar lines.

Mirror Image: Even as a 3rd level spell, this is still great whenever you're not facing an arcanist - which will probably be most of the time.

 

[Diamond Cross]

You guys realize all of these spells has been play tested for months and possibly even years right?

But I guess that doesn't matter. The mage has got to be depowered.

 

[Empirate]

"Playtesting" is what my group has been doing for quite a few years, as well. Seems WotC's playtesters really only ever played blaster casters, not God Wizards... they simply didn't understand what a lot of their spells can do to a campaign, (ab)used intelligently.

Also note that I am aware that there are very, very good spells, which I don't consider to need a 'fix'. I think even a 'fixed spell' Wizard or Cleric will still be able to overshadow pretty much everybody else in the group. Some spells just don't make sense the way they're written, in various ways (OP for their level, make skills pointless, make entire classes pointless etc.), thus I consider them broken - which doesn't necessarily equate to overly powerful in every case.

 

[the Jester]

You guys realize all of these spells has been play tested for months and possibly even years right?

Dude, you realize that many of the spells in D&D have changed with every edition, right?

You're applying the naturalistic fallacy here- "It has always been this way, ergo it should be this way." But neither half of that equation is true!