havard
Adventurer
True, although the same module has several NPCs who are clearly Mystaran, one from Glantri.
-Havard
B2: Keep on the Borderlands
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
True, although the same module has several NPCs who are clearly Mystaran, one from Glantri.
-Havard
thedungeondelver
Adventurer
Oh, I know Gary didn't set B2 in any specific campaign world (KNOWN WORLD/MYSTARA sorta kinda came up as a result of B2...), I was just teasing. He'd just been asked over on DRAGONSFOOT.ORG a few years ago where in GREYHAWK it might be best set and that was his answer iirc.
If anything, it cries out to be the starting place for a Dungeon Master's homebrew campaign world!
Also, IIRC, B1 IN SEARCH OF THE UNKNOWN makes direct mention of THE WORLD OF GREYHAWK.
Henry
Autoexreginated
As a kid, I must've run it two or three times.
As a college-ager, I ran it once.
As an adult out of college, I've run it at least once.
It's a well-rounded localized campaign setting, a precursor to the whole "Nentir Vale" idea. You could probably run a game clear through to 5th level or so and never leave the area. By the time you got mass destruction spells like fireball, and especially by the time fighters are getting multiple attacks, It's over for the poor Caves of Chaos and surrounding environs.
My only disparaging comment is about the whole "Apartment Complex of Evil" setup, which someone pointed out to me years ago, and now I can't get that out of my head when I look at it today.
As a college-ager, I ran it once.
As an adult out of college, I've run it at least once.
It's a well-rounded localized campaign setting, a precursor to the whole "Nentir Vale" idea. You could probably run a game clear through to 5th level or so and never leave the area. By the time you got mass destruction spells like fireball, and especially by the time fighters are getting multiple attacks, It's over for the poor Caves of Chaos and surrounding environs.
My only disparaging comment is about the whole "Apartment Complex of Evil" setup, which someone pointed out to me years ago, and now I can't get that out of my head when I look at it today.
Holy Bovine
First Post
While I certainly had fun with KotB, it's not without its... hiccups.
It really, REALLY could use some editing. Stat blocks are jumbled in willy nilly with flavour text, stuff that the DM can share with the players, like room descriptions, are jammed in next to stuff that should be secret (leading to the oh so fun, "Oh crap, I shouldn't have read that" moments)
And, basically, it took every single monster in the Basic rule book and jammed it into one module. It lacks structure and theme. You've got a tower of orcs basically.
IMO, the map is too linear as well. Sure, you've got a bunch of choices between entry points, but, once you enter a given cave, it's a pretty much straight line to the big boss at the back of the cave. Yes, there are some branches, but, each branch generally only leads to a single room. For example, Cave A. You enter into a T junction. Go left and it's one room, go right and you do reach another T junction. Go straight and it's one room, turn left and you come to another T junction - left gives you one room, right gives you one room.
Note, not all caves are like this. B and C are linked by a single secret door, so there are some possibilities. But, by and large, each cave is a smallish linear dungeon crawl.
That being said, I don't think this is a bad module. My biggest single complaint is that it isn't a very good module for what it's purpose was, or at least what I understood it's purpose to be - and that's teaching new DM's how to design an adventure. There are a lot of bad lessons contained in here - lack of organization, lack of detail, and just too damn many different monsters jammed cheek to jowl in one area.
I think that The Lost City should have been the module included in the Basic set. To me, that's a much better module for teaching fledgeling (and decidedly young - Basic was intended for 10 year olds) DM's how to design a good adventure. You have a multicursal map (including a VERY cool spinning tunnel for accessing different points in one of the levels), a strong theme and a fantastic set up for stories - three detailed rival factions vying for control while a 4th secret faction works from the shadows.
Granted, that might have been a bit difficult as B4 came out in 82, not 79, but, hey, I can dream.
As much as I loved B2 I would agree whole heartedly that B4 was the better adventure. I have run that little gem at least 3 times (changing very little except for the creepy 'empty' level I made once in which a super-sized ochre jelly had killed all the inhabitants long ago) and just love the whole set up. I actually think it would have been even better if they had dropped the whole 'reverse' pyramid thing at the end and added more details to the underground city itself. But that's what a DM is for I suppose!
francisca
I got dice older than you.
My only disparaging comment is about the whole "Apartment Complex of Evil" setup, which someone pointed out to me years ago, and now I can't get that out of my head when I look at it today.
Yes. And no 1st level party has a hope of assaulting the caves if they are unified.
I always play up the enmity of the various factions, with the evil priests trying to keep the rabble together long enough to make an effective assault, using the Ogre and Minotaur as enforcers, who feed offenders to the owlbear.
Before the party ever finds the caves, they have a couple skirmishes with some of the orcs or gnolls, weakening the complex. When they get to the caves, they find a powder keg ready to explode in disarray and infighting (caves of chaos, indeed....), ripe for subversion and manipulation into self-destruction.
Even back in the day, D&D has always been as much about the wits of the players as rolling dice in a hack'n'slash-fest, at least to me and my fellow players.
The only thing that ever bothered me about B4, was on one hand, cautioning the DM that all encounters must make sense, then on the other, Moldvay goes and puts a big blue dragon in a 40x40 room, down in one of the deepest parts of the dungeon.
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Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
Or elsewhere. I ran a multi-year 3E/3,5E campaign that used KotB for the first few levels, set in the Forgotten Realms. The Keep itself became Peldan's Helm, the outpost in southwestern Mistledale in the Dalelands, with the Caves in the forests to the north. The Beastlands to the southwest of that location with their populations of humanoid monsters gave enough linkage to justify the mix of monsters at the Caves once some plot motivations kicked in.
thedungeondelver
Adventurer
Okay at this point I'm donning a fake handlebar mustache and bowler hat and pointing down the street and saying in my best Mel Blanc "growly voice" "He went thataway."
rogueattorney
Adventurer
The only thing that ever bothered me about B4, was on one hand, cautioning the DM that all encounters must make sense, then on the other, Moldvay goes and puts a big blue dragon in a 40x40 room, down in one of the deepest parts of the dungeon.
I decided the blue dragon had polymorphed into a human and was posing as a priest of Zargon in an effort to replace him as the local god/ruler.
frankthedm
First Post
On B4, I used a younger blue dragon as a corrupted slave of Zargon when i ran itin 3E. 9 HD of dragon fit in a much smaller package in Wotc's game.
Deep in the bowels of a forgotten civilization, a horrid creature dwells in an ancient pyramid, attended to by an insane cult. One day, the creature’s sacrifice came in the form of an azure egg. Had the poor creature within been lucky, it would have been consumed then and there. It was not. Changed within its egg by the otherworldly horror, the dragon was born as one of the Horror's minions. Now growing in mind, body and insanity, the dragon lairs near the Horror, muttering to itself, torn between inborn loyalty to itself, to Law and to its abberant lord.
Blue dragon's random mutterings
Deep in the bowels of a forgotten civilization, a horrid creature dwells in an ancient pyramid, attended to by an insane cult. One day, the creature’s sacrifice came in the form of an azure egg. Had the poor creature within been lucky, it would have been consumed then and there. It was not. Changed within its egg by the otherworldly horror, the dragon was born as one of the Horror's minions. Now growing in mind, body and insanity, the dragon lairs near the Horror, muttering to itself, torn between inborn loyalty to itself, to Law and to its abberant lord.
Blue dragon's random mutterings
- It below gave me life... It should not live!
- I must serve it... It must die again!
- Must not eat others who serve... so tasty... gold masks so pretty.
- Demand tribute! Worship! Take tribute!
- Ia! Ia! Zargon, Child of Carcosa!, Spawn of Yellow!
- It is killed and is reborn! To Destroy…The Eye!
