Brainstorming on spell fixes

[Celebrim]

Also, Celebrim. How does the suggested change exactly make Mordenkainen's Disjunction more powerful as a spell? And how would you fix it then? (Just asking)

One of the main reason's you don't see Mord's Disjunction used more often by the PC's is that at best it is likely to destroy a significant amount of treasure, reducing the effective character level of the party over time by putting the party below the game's expected character wealth by level. Additionally, in close quarters setting off a Disjunction risks destroying some of the parties own gear which would be a fate literally worse than death (in that its much harder to recover from) if you are playing RAW.

But if Mord's Disjuction only suppresses magical items for a limited but lengthy period (in terms of the average length of a combat), then both of these drawbacks are elimenated.

As for fixing it, to be honest I have given almost no thought to balancing 9th level spells. I don't play in that level range, and it just doesn't concern me much. I would say that from my experience in the mid to high levels, some sort of 'nuclear option' like Disjunction is probably necessary for the game as otherwise buffing up is just too strong of an option. Whether Disjunction goes too far is something I could only say after significant experience with the spell. Also, I would say that Disjunction is a spell that much more strongly favors NPC's than PC's and as such 'balance' wouldn't be my primary concern. I'd be more concerned about its ability to be game wrecking.

But, off the top of my head, the one essential fix I see for the spell is that you need to fix the math such that you end up with a 1e like structure to saving throws were the higher the level of the character the more likely he is to pass a saving throw. Currently, and especially without heavy optimization (Christmas tree), spell other DC's climb faster than a character's expected saving bonus especially in poor saves. As a result, this spell is much more destructive than it really should be against high level targets.

 

[Empirate]

But, off the top of my head, the one essential fix I see for the spell is that you need to fix the math such that you end up with a 1e like structure to saving throws were the higher the level of the character the more likely he is to pass a saving throw. Currently, and especially without heavy optimization (Christmas tree), spell other DC's climb faster than a character's expected saving bonus especially in poor saves. As a result, this spell is much more destructive than it really should be against high level targets.

Agree with you on most points except the above. What with gear and buffing up, and most importantly multiclassing, save bonuses actually rise more quickly than save DCs ever can. Anyone who's played a save-or-die focused caster knows that you have to put a LOT of effort into keeping up your save DCs, in order to be competitive at all.

 

[akbearfoot]

I don't think I much agree with a lot of things on that list. Some of them are good fixes, but some done seem necessary.


I've never seen divine power abused. In most of our games fights only last 4-8 rounds. The only time divine power has ever even came into play, that was after Righteous Might, and other buffs, which makes a cleric fearsome but he spent half the battle powering up.

Polymorph has always been problematic, I recommend Pathfinder's fix for that. Then again, I also consider almost all of their polymorph spells to be weak, except maybe the top version of the respective lines.

Shapechange is easily fixed by changing the HD cap to Caster level, instead of twice caster level. Or by limiting it to creatures you've spent some time dealing with in person, and disallowing Advanced versions/templates. Applying all of limitations would probably nerf the spell too much to make it worth taking.

Entangle is overpowered for its level, but I don't think I've ever seen it abused to the point it ruined a game, or even an encounter. Faerie Fire is overpowered for its level too, but its another example of mechanics that are powerful that don't really fundamentally break a game.

Resist Energy, Protectiion from evil, Freedom of Movement, Knock, Comprehend Languages, Mind Blank, Enlarge Person, and the wall spells mentioned...Why change these? With the exception of enlarge person, none of these spells are offensive in nature. They are mostly either reactive spells, or prepatory defenses, or obstacle removal utility. A Mage that gets grappled is a:useless and B:dead. They must have spells of various levels that keep them from getting hit, or mitigate the damage they take, or they are dead(which means not fun to play).

Mind blank mainly does 1 thing. It preserves secrecy at high levels. the DM can't spy on the mage, and the PCs can't spy on any high level BBEGs or any other particularly essential plot NPC that the PCs want to thwart or vice versa. Also gives the player a security blanket that feels great at the cost of an 8th level spell slot. Otherwise it doesn't do much because you can always just scry another party member, or dispel it, or metafaculty, or divine intervention to justify the occasional need to knock it off of him. Also, I think mindblank is 'assumed' on at least some characters at high levels. Practically everything has a menacing aura. And with wizards will saves aren't 'save or die'...they are 'save or your party dies'

Enlarge person, and the mass versions of it. Has this ever been abused? The only serious benefit is Reach. Which is really good at levels 1-3, but less and less beneficial the higher you get because PCs are pretty much always outsized by the bad guys.

Knock...it bogs a game down when the PCs have to spend 2 minutes taking 20 to knock down every door in a dungeon. Even worse if you use traps on some of your doors. then every door becomes an encounter on its own and you'll have paranoid PCs asking 20 questions about every 5' square in the dungeon. Not fun. totally not a big deal if the PC gets to occasionally flex his magic muscle and say "that door we can open fast!'

 

[Empirate]

I'm slowly getting annoyed that people go criticizing my fix proposals but don't come up with some of their own, for spells I didn't discuss. Too many threads are just "one guy gives some input, most other guys just try to tear him down". Feels unconstructive.


akbearfoot: most of the fixes on my little list (which I really just whipped up on the fly) go towards stopping a single spell from obviating whole mechanics of the game (entire skills, feat trees, class abilities, spell schools etc.):

Divine Power makes your Cleric a Fighter who can also cast by taking the only thing primary warrior guys have and Clerics lack (BAB), and give it to the Cleric. Also, this is the only effect in the game except Tenser's (during which you can't cast) to affect BAB. Hate this.
Don't know the PF fix to Polymorph, have to look it up.
Shapechange is not fixed by HD caps. Almost nothing is. Look at angels, devils, demons, see what they can do with lowly HD? Shapechange needs a more restricting clause about what abilities it grants, otherwise every single monster ever published makes the Sor/Wiz more powerful.
Entangle's area is too big in my book, that's all. It's just too close to Solid Fog in power level for a 1st level spell. And yes, I have seen it totally ruin encounters. Where do you get the idea that Faerie Fire is OP?
Resist Energy at higher levels makes energy attacks almost pointless. Many monsters rely on these. It also makes Protection from Energy or even Energy Immunity mostly pointless.
Protection from Evil grants blanket immunity to a whole range of attack forms, for a 1st level spell. That's too much, on top of the not-so-bad (for 1st level) AC and save bonuses it grants. As a 3rd level spell, it's still a nice-if-situational defense.
Freedom of Movement: blanket immunity to many, many attack forms, again. This is too much for 4th level. Likewise, Heart of Water.
Comprehend Languages/Knock: make certain skills pointless. Skills are underpowered enough already.
Enlarge Person: I feel reach weapons plus Enlarge Person just takes up too much space on the battlefield. Also, their reach advantage is the only thing that makes many monsters a credible threat at all. I'd maybe not nerf this actually, but still. Also, this actually becomes more useful at mid levels in my experience.
Mind Blank: blanket immunity. You know how much I hate those? As an 8th level spell, all right, but for 24 hours straight, so you can just cast it right before going to sleep each day? Nope, please, just a little more effort, spellcasters, you shouldn't get everything gift-wrapped!

 

[Celebrim]

I'm slowly getting annoyed that people go criticizing my fix proposals but don't come up with some of their own, for spells I didn't discuss. Too many threads are just "one guy gives some input, most other guys just try to tear him down". Feels unconstructive.

Believe me, I share your frustration.

I hope I don't come off that way. I think you and I have very much common concerns about the effect of spells on the game, and it was my intention in critiquing part of your list to suggest alternative ideas many of which are based on how the spells actually already work in my game. As I said, on the whole I think you did a good job, and even with the spells I don't agree are big problems I at least know where you are coming from and I'm willing to let you talk me into. And in many cases, even if I disagree with you over the details of the fix, I 100% support your selection of the spell as a candidate needing fixing.

I intend eventually to spend additional effort on this thread. The only reason I didn't is that I've been prepping a mega-dungeon for my campaign (as well as a new plot-line) in my free time. However, there are a lot more spells that could be mentioned here and I hope to get a chance to eventually do so.

 

[Celebrim]

Agree with you on most points except the above. What with gear and buffing up, and most importantly multiclassing, save bonuses actually rise more quickly than save DCs ever can.

If in fact you've already got a 1e like structure in your game, then I have no problem. However, we don't share experiences in this regard. In my experience with 3rd edition, saves actually become harder right about the time that it really starts to suck if you fail one (that is to say, death is the likely result of a failed save).

If you start looking at the math, over the course of levels 1-20, the DC of saving vs. a spell goes up by 9 since spell level adds to spell DC. The bonus of saves goes up by 6-12, which means that the good saves can generally outpace this increase will the poor saves fall behind. However, over the course of 1-20, the caster will also likely dump all points into his primary spellcasting attribute which means that spell DC goes up on average by 11. By constrast, the defender will generally not be able to dump all of his stat increases into the defensive attribute (wisdom in the case of will, etc.). Likewise, the caster is likely to acquire at least one level of Spell Focus or other enhancement of spell DC through feats, bring up spell DC's increase to at least 12. But defensive feats may or may not taken by the defender, and certainly the defender has a harder time plugging all three defenses than the caster has enhancing attack. Enhancement bonuses to ability scores through items/buffs/wishes tend to be a wash, increasing defense and offense on both sides equally. That leaves only resistance enhancing items, but in the best case they add +5. The net result of all of this is the odds of making your poor saves tends to slowly slip over time even with optimal equipment, because the attacker is also likely to be so enhanced. In practice, it is even worse because you are seldom optimally defended except in games with fungible magic items and magic marts.

Multiclassing IME doesn't help much. If you use fractional accounting, it is a wash. If on the other hand you play with stock RAW, the tendency of multiclassing is to slightly increase your good saves at the expense of slightly decreasing your poor saves. This just makes you that much more vulnerable. Multiclassing also opens up spellcasting PrCs, some of which provide additional ability to enhance spellcasting DC.

The situation is even worse with the extraordinary abilities of high HD creatures, who get increases in DC at the rate of 1/2 HD and can usually outstrip at high levels in a character's good saves.

Anyone who's played a save-or-die focused caster knows that you have to put a LOT of effort into keeping up your save DCs, in order to be competitive at all.

If you can get your save or dies to where they succeed half the time, you are still much much ahead of a guy who wins by whittling away hit points. Given that you probably start out with the ability to succeed in a poor save about 40% of the time, and IME tend to slip over time, IME at higher levels you might only have a 10 or 20% chance of making your poor save versus an attacker's best spells - which often means at those levels an 80 or 90% chance of instant death. It is that that ends up driving a spell buff economy that revolves around absolute defenses like Freedom of Action, Mind Blank, Death Ward, etc. You either have those up or die. IME those numbers are almost backwards (especially in the case of attacks made against the PCs rather rather than attacks by the PCs). If your spell has a 20% chance of killing something outright, it's still probably as strong of an attack as trying to whittle off hit points and it still means a potential slaughter of the party if there is a spate of bad rolls.

I think this was only my ill-informed opinion, but one of the main things 3.5 openly tried to address was this problem. I don't feel it went far enough, and like many things in 3.5 actually ultimately made the problem it was supposedly trying to fix worse.

IME again, and naturally this may vary, 'save or die' casters do just fine versus humanoids and only really have problems versus dragons, outsiders, and other things with lots of good saves (3 in those cases) and typically superhumanly high ability scores with few weaknesses (and possibly SR and immunities on top of that).

 

[Alexander123]

I'm slowly getting annoyed that people go criticizing my fix proposals but don't come up with some of their own, for spells I didn't discuss. Too many threads are just "one guy gives some input, most other guys just try to tear him down". Feels unconstructive.

Nobody is trying to tear you down, but if you put an idea out there you should expect criticism. If people don't want to make proposals of their own that is their right. I don't make proposals because I keep the spells as they are with the exception of MDJ which I ban because it ruins the fun of the game.

 

[Empirate]

You make a convincing argument concerning the save DC thing. Maybe my PCs just tend to multiclass like crazy... A Fighter 10 has +7/+3/+3 base save bonuses. A Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Bard 1/Dragon Disciple 5 has +10/+3/+6. Multiclassing can have a huge effect if you don't use fractional save bonuses.

Sure, a decently optimized caster can still put the hurt on, and the fact that there are actual save-or-die effects in the game makes a failed save extraordinarily deadly compared to quite a few other RPGs. But when I'm playing a caster, I'm always shying away from using save-or-dies/save-or-sucks. It can just too easily feel like I wasted a turn when they make their save, and who's to say they won't make it next time?

Also, save bonuses in the form of magic are cheap to come by. +5 resistance is only 25,000 gp, and well worth the cost. Constitution is an important stat to everybody due to HP concerns alone, so most people's Fort save will be a little on the high side. Reflex saves are generally only there to avoid part of the damage, and you'll often be able to substitute HP for a decent save there. That leaves Will to attack. Which is why I don't like blanket immunities to mind-affecting stuff...

All in all, I don't like blanket immunities in any circumstances, to be honest. Immunities just shut out part of the game. As a DM I know about my PCs' immunities, know that it's pointless to attack them in certain ways. Of course (being the fantastic DM that I am...) I will still do it from time to time - only to make them feel good. But that kind of customer service is not what I'm ready to provide on a regular basis.
If my PCs have certain immunities, it forces me into certain lanes of building encounters, and ultimately, building adventures and campaigns. Fighting Mind Flayers isn't really an interesting adventure if the whole group has Mind Blank and Rings of Freedom of Movement.

In my book, blanket immunities do not enrich the game. They detract from it.


EDIT: [MENTION=98794]Alexander123[/MENTION]: I do expect criticism. I look forward to it, and the discussion has been interesting so far. But doesn't anybody else have any suggestions of their own? It's not that I'm malcontent with this thread. It's just that so many forums go the direction I stated. Often enough, I'm the one criticizing the lone input-giver. But I really ought to stop if I don't have any ideas of my own concerning the thread topic.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Things are going nicely here, so far...

But besides fixes for specific spells, I was hoping to do one other major task: spreading out spells over 20 levels, with revised class progression charts and repositioning (unedited) spells to levels appropriate to their power.

So, for instance, something like Wish would become a Lvl 20 spell. Sleep & Magic Missile would be Level 2, perhaps.

But in addition, perhaps certain spells- like Sleep, like Magic Missile would have lesser and greater versions to round out spell lists, as hinted in my OP. This would let us smoothe out power progrssions while keeping themes across levels, and assuring that Specialists and certain focused casting classes have appropriate spells available at each level. These would be nerfed or nitroed versions of current spells- perhaps with some altered mechanics- culled from PrCls, home-brews, or whatever.

 

[Celebrim]

Things are going nicely here, so far...

But besides fixes for specific spells, I was hoping to do one other major task: spreading out spells over 20 levels, with revised class progression charts and repositioning (unedited) spells to levels appropriate to their power.

I don't see a lot of need for revised spell progression charts, but I'm totally on board with you on moving spells to their appropriate level.

My pet peeves on spell level are regeneration and Mord's Magnificent Mansion.

Apparantly restoring a limb is far more difficult than raising some one from the dead.

And Mord's Magnificent Mansion is something I'm pretty sure I wouldn't let a player successfully Wish for - "I wish I had a private demiplane that has a single entrance..." It's a 9th level spell at minimum.