How would you houserule (nerf) magic at high levels.

[Crazy Jerome]

Another option in the arsenal of magic limits is to introduce targeting that isn't perfect. In a crude variant, make the wizard throw his fireball using whatever grenade rules are in place. If the fireball doesn't end up exactly where he wants, too bad.

Fantasy Hero has this built into its mechanics. It is not hard to get an area effect power to go off where you want, but it isn't a sure thing either. We had one campaign where the elven wizard kept missing with her mass lighting effect so often that in the midst of a crucial fight, the player of the tough but surrounded warrior suggested that she aim at him. That way, when she missed, she'd have a good shot of hitting the bad guys.

A "miss, but goes off anyway" option is not a bad choice for an interrupted casting mixed with rules to make interrupting easier. I prefer it to fizzle or wild magic random options. If the spell goes off, there is the possiblity that the caster still gets close to what they want. They merely need to balance that against the possibility that they might fry or paralyze a friend or three. The player can look at each situation, and then decide whether or not to risk it--as opposed to having the same set answer all the time. If they decide to risk it, something interesting will happen.

Generally, for a brake on magic, I prefer uncertainty instead of known but hard limits. Uncertainty preys on the mind of the caster's player--and all the other players, too.

 

[Dungeonstone]

The fact that many higher level NPCs have varying levels of Magic Resistance tends to help balance the higher level games a bit.

The 12th level fighter with a +4 sword may easily out damage a mage against an opponent who has say 55% magic resistance. In our last game session that is exactly what happened.

Earlier on, the Mage single handedly took out several 4-5th level minions with a couple of AoE spells, however when they encountered an enemy with Magic Resistance the Mage had three non-effective spells in a row while the fighters were wading into the enemy.

Against enemies with Magic Resistance or magical defenses (Spell immunity, Globe of Invulnerability, etc.) the Magic-user is best served in a support role for his party be enhancing the combat effectiveness of the other members of the group (Haste, Growth, Strength, etc.) or through summoning up additional creatures to help the PCs in battle.


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Dungeonstone
http://www.dungeonstone.com

 

[Plane Sailing]

How about an alternate take. In looking back at the older (iere 3.0 editions) one thing stands out. Different classes needed different amounts of xp to advance.

What if the Wizard required a lot more xp to advance in levels than other classes.

Something funny? Most people don't realise that at mid levels (e.g. 7th) the wizard required *less* xp to level than a fighter! They needed more at 1st level, and more at 11th level, so people often assume they need more all the way up, but the AD&D xp tables had some really weird progressions!

 

[airwalkrr]

The fact that many higher level NPCs have varying levels of Magic Resistance tends to help balance the higher level games a bit.

The 12th level fighter with a +4 sword may easily out damage a mage against an opponent who has say 55% magic resistance. In our last game session that is exactly what happened.

Earlier on, the Mage single handedly took out several 4-5th level minions with a couple of AoE spells, however when they encountered an enemy with Magic Resistance the Mage had three non-effective spells in a row while the fighters were wading into the enemy.

Against enemies with Magic Resistance or magical defenses (Spell immunity, Globe of Invulnerability, etc.) the Magic-user is best served in a support role for his party be enhancing the combat effectiveness of the other members of the group (Haste, Growth, Strength, etc.) or through summoning up additional creatures to help the PCs in battle.


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Dungeonstone
http://www.dungeonstone.com

Unfortunately this is virtually a non-issue in many 3e-based games as conjuration spells never allow spell resistance. If the wizard can't fireball the golem, he can always Melf's acid arrow it, Evard's black tentacles it, or acid fog it. And if you allow say, the Spell Compendium, well then there is a commensurate damaging spell for almost every spell level from the Conjuration school. I house-rule this in my games. Spell resistance always applies against damaging effects. Magic fire is magic fire whether it is conjured or evoked.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Another option in the arsenal of magic limits is to introduce targeting that isn't perfect. In a crude variant, make the wizard throw his fireball using whatever grenade rules are in place. If the fireball doesn't end up exactly where he wants, too bad.

Empire of the Petal Throne could be particularly brutal in this regards. Their fireball equivalent was the ferocious 'Doomkill' spell. When targeting it, you had to roll 2d6. 6-8 was bang on target, 9+ overshot, 5- undershot, and if you rolled snake eyes, you were in the blast radius yourself (which would almost certainly kill you!) I'm not entirely sure of the accurate range, but I remember the fear of rolling 1 - 1 very well!

 

[Mort]

Even in "D&D" fiction the mage often gets tired after casting spells (Dragonlance was a good example of this, it was stated as one of the biggest vulnerabilities of the mages). But there is no mechanic in 3e/3.5e (and I don't think Pathfinder has one either).

So a mage can go through his entire arsenal like it's a machine gun.

One solution, temporary Con damage: 1 con damage per spell level (recovered after minutes or hours vs. days like real con damage and unconciousness not deat when reaching 0) this means a mage could cast himself unconcious and there is a real risk to rapid high level casting.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Back in my AD&D days, I was using a 'hp and wounds' system, where hp was recovered quickly by rest, but could be lost to exertion as well as damage. There were no clerics or healing spells.

In that system casting spells cost you 1hp per spell level in hp damage; it worked nicely in low to mid level games, it was never tested out at high level though.

The one thing that doesn't get addressed by changes such as this (or the impossibly draconian one which Mort suggests!) is the use of spells and staves - a staff of fire is relatively cheap, scalable and powerful in 3.5e.

Cheers

 

[Mort]

Back in my AD&D days, I was using a 'hp and wounds' system, where hp was recovered quickly by rest, but could be lost to exertion as well as damage. There were no clerics or healing spells.

In that system casting spells cost you 1hp per spell level in hp damage; it worked nicely in low to mid level games, it was never tested out at high level though.

The one thing that doesn't get addressed by changes such as this (or the impossibly draconian one which Mort suggests!) is the use of spells and staves - a staff of fire is relatively cheap, scalable and powerful in 3.5e.

Cheers

It's only "impossibly draconian" because we're all conditioned (or may desensitized?) to the D&D caster being a rapid fire solution to every problem in and out of combat. That said I was going for a bit drastic as an alternative to the current "no repercussions"; not sure if I would actually do it in a game (maybe try it in a one shot sometime see how it works), certainly pacing would have to be altered.

On the other point, easy access to items is a bit of a plague in 3e/3.5 (Item access was always easy in D&D but before could be blamed on the DM, now players have control over the flow too). I think if you instituted any of the above rules, you could also make item creation a bit tougher - which would really leavel the playing field (of course instituting the above rules you'd also likely have items that had "stored life energy" such as staves with 10 con, for example, which could give mages a boost).

 

[messy]

I made martial characters multi-faceted and fun to play without giving them "martial spellcasting".

example?

 

[Tuft]

My DM (Starfox on these boards) devised a simple system for 3.5 that:

A) Emphasized the use of lower level spells over higher level spells.

B) Got rid of the 15-min adventuring day.

C) Limited the wizard's ability to "alpha-strike".

It was simply a "spell level recharge system".

After using a spell of a certain level, all spells of that level were unavailable until you made a recharge roll of (I think) 10 + spell level. (C.f. saving against continuous damage or monster recharge in in 4E). This roll was made for each spent spell level separately at the end of the turn.

That meant that after a fireball you could not cast another until you had rolled a 13+ on your recharge for 3rd level spells - which effectively hindered you from doing a fireball-fireball-lightning bolt opening salvo; you had to intersperse some other levels into that.

It also meant that you really thought about casting higher level spells; what if you needed a spell of a certain level for defense or got a great opportunity shot, and that level was already spent? Rolling 18+ to regain that 8th level is *tough*.

Since all slots recharged eventually, you would never run out of spells, which got rid of the 15 min adventuring day, but you got more limited and, well, slower *during* encounters.

It needed some special rules to handle permanent and long duration spells, but on the whole it worked real well.

One advantage is that this system could easily be tweaked by changing the base number for the recharge rolls: You get more magic at a recharge of 8 + spell level, and less at 12 + spell level.