Rule of 3 3/21

[GMforPowergamers]

Actually, I said the guidelines were more in line with "format" changes (powers have fluff, feats are grouped, etc). I never got a "don't mention at-will attacks!" guideline. But now that we have Slayers, Knights and Thieves, I have to take into account that some classes rely on basic attacks that are no less powerful than at-will powers.

Didn't you also say you wrote for this book pre hotf k/l came out...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Base attacks are (non class specific) at-will attack powers. So don´t worry.

edit:
[MENTION=14053]ST[/MENTION]rength Cleric: he was left in the open from PHB 1. He has only a half paragon path (angelic avenger) and a PP that was suited to him but had wis primary (warpriest) and only got one single str PP (batlle chaplain)

Ok, when you read this you think: what the hell, but if you really look at it from the right angle: the str cleric was never meant to be str primary/wis dump, but str and wis about equally high (about 16 or 18 depending on your races bonus), with charisma more or less dumped.

But dual stat classes recieve no real support from shortly after PHB 1 hit the shelves, as people believe dual stat classes have no right to exist. They actually would work great now, with the new monster math and expertise feats.

 

[webrunner]

Speaking of at-will attacks I've always wondered why:
- Charge
- Bull Rush
- Grab
- etc

Aren't presented powers. There's really no reason why not.

 

[Klaus]

Didn't you also say you wrote for this book pre hotf k/l came out...

Yep. I was given access to a .doc file of the feats included in HotFL/K so I could make new feats, and a .doc file of the dwarf race so I could see the new race format. When doing PPs and EDs, the Shadow Dancer served as the format template. But that was all I knew of Essentials when I wrote my bits of HoS.

 

[occam]

Speaking of at-will attacks I've always wondered why:
- Charge
- Bull Rush
- Grab
- etc

Aren't presented powers. There's really no reason why not.

Bull rush and grab are presented as at-will powers in the Rules Compendium.

 

[MrMyth]

No change and shift is funny. @Klaus, who wrote for HoS even said they got new submission guidelines based on the essential changes.

Yes... and I'm guessing that almost entirely revolved around formatting rather than actual content or design of the material. In other words, had nothing to do with compatability, and everything to do with a simple change in how the material is presented. In other words, completely inconsequential to the argument at hand.

After all the different 'Power x' and 'PH x' books, all classes still used the same progression and could use multiclass feats (and later hybrid options).

HotFL and HotFK changed that and the trend continues in HoS. But yeah, the new book is great support as long as the essential variant is close enough to the PH class (but not for Str clerics etc).

Multiclassing for Essentials is a serious issue - and one WotC plans to address, notably.

Even so, though, that doesn't change your claims. In fact, let's take a real close look at what the actual difference is.

I have the PHB, but not PHB2 or FRPG. I get Arcane Power. In it, I find material that supports Swordmages, Bards and Sorcerers, which are of no use to me. But wait! You claim that it is, since I can multiclass into them!

And this is true. And it gets me access to feats and paragon paths based on those classes, as well as the ability to power-swap for encounter and daily powers. Of course, many of those feats and paragon paths will be useless to me without the actual class features, which I don't get access to.

I have the PHB, but not HotFK/HotFL. I get Heroes of Shadow. In it, I find material that supports Essentials builds, which are of no use to me. But wait! Some of that material is.

Specifically, I can still get access to the feats and paragon paths for them by multiclassing into their base classes. Of course, many of those won't be useful without the specific build features from Essentials, which I don't get access to. And I can indeed power swap, or even take directly, encounter and daily powers provided in the book - the ones you dismiss as simply being 'backwards compatability' rather than 'new content and support'.

You can't have it both ways. You can't simultaneously claim that Arcane Power provided support for the PHB, since a Wizard could multiclass Swordmage and power-swap for Int-based Encounter and Daily powers, but that Heroes of Shadow doesn't provide support despite providing Encounter and Daily powers without any power swapping feats required.

And you cut my post to not have to answer to my other points in it.

What other points? The only other primary sentence I cut was: "Yes, you can use some of the stuff for the older core, but the focus is now on the new and shiny Essentials (like) stuff."

Which... is pretty much just the same sort of claim I'm already addressing. Yes, it provides lots of content for the new shiny Essentials stuff. It also provides plenty of content for earlier material. Just like Arcane Power provided a bunch of content for Swordmages, Bards and Sorcerers from newer books, but also provided content for Wizards and Warlocks from the PHB.

Now, if you feel this approach in general is flawed - which is to say, every splatbook should only directly support one prior product, rather than the range of 4E content up to that point - you are free to feel that way. Though I think that would be a terrible approach for the game as a whole.

But nothing is happening here that didn't happen with splatbooks previously. At least, that we have seen thus far - the book could come out, and the sections for the cleric and wizard could just be filled with pictures of WotC employees laughing at us, and the Essentials content come with disclaimers that non-Essentials Wizards and Clerics take damage every time they use a power designed for Mages or Warpriests.

But... that seems unlikely. And absent something that extreme, the differences between Heroes of Shadow and Arcane Power are pretty much entirely a matter of formatting and presentation, and nothing more.

 

[The Little Raven]

After all the different 'Power x' and 'PH x' books, all classes still used the same progression and could use multiclass feats (and later hybrid options).

The power point-using psionic classes are not using the same progression as the previous classes. They are far more different from the previous class designs than the majority of the Essentials class design (most of which still use the A/E/D breakdown). To claim otherwise is to ignore objective fact.

 

[Walking Dad]

As each of my claims is tackled by 3 or 5 people who congratulate each other for their inside, I will just leave the thread. Neither my nor your opinion will change anything in the end.
But I'm still the opinion that essentials brought more change than the different 'Power x' books. And all the so called 'Essential-haters' agree with me, so some people see a change.

And something is different to the splatbooks: It includes complete playable classes and races

 

[WalterKovacs]

As each of my claims is tackled by 3 or 5 people who congratulate each other for their inside, I will just leave the thread. Neither my nor your opinion will change anything in the end.
But I'm still the opinion that essentials brought more change than the different 'Power x' books. And all the so called 'Essential-haters' agree with me, so some people see a change.

And something is different to the splatbooks: It includes complete playable classes and races

I would assume the campaign specific books would be considered splat books, and they included complete playable races and classes. The X Power books are different from Heroes of Shadow based on their goal. Heroes of Shadow is like a Player's Guide for the Shadowfell (and, they are putting out the equivalent of a DM's guide to the Shadowfell soon after).

 

[MrMyth]

As each of my claims is tackled by 3 or 5 people who congratulate each other for their inside, I will just leave the thread. Neither my nor your opinion will change anything in the end.
But I'm still the opinion that essentials brought more change than the different 'Power x' books. And all the so called 'Essential-haters' agree with me, so some people see a change.

Wait, so your objection is not with any actual logic or argument I've presented, but with the fact that others agree with that logic and awarded me xp for it??

In any case, you are certainly free to not respond, and it is true that others may be in agreement with you. But I still don't find any merit in the argument being made, and I think we've pretty clearly shown that the only differences are superficial at best - to the formatting and presentation, and nothing more.

And something is different to the splatbooks: It includes complete playable classes and races

That's true, I suppose - but having new races (or a class-race like Vampire) provides new content that is equally useful to both those using Essentials and non-Essentials material. I don't see any impact it would have on "backwards compatability" or support for previous products or the like.