[REDACTED]

[DumbPaladin]

As for the point that Dumb Paladin is asserting, we do take into consideration a posters history when moderating them. But, as far as I'm concerned, that works more against them than it does for them. If they have been around a long time then they've been around long enough to know better than to break the rules. I find myself cutting more slack to newer members who may have less of a grasp of the rules.

If you want a great example of this, perhaps you recall Shadzar. He was, in my humble moderatorial opinion, a real dick. And yet he posted here for quite some time, getting reported multiple times in numerous threads for generally being rude. We didn't boot him from ENW immediately. In fact the process was far slower than I'd have preferred precisely because we wanted to give him every opportunity to adjust his behavior before kicking him from the site.

[snip]

I'll say that we moderators are human and there are several of us so of course we're not going to be 100% consistent every time. But I put a great deal of stock in the good judgment of my fellow moderators and I find that we generally try to err on the side of being lenient.

This is my point exactly, actually, Rel. You have at least 2 Shazdars (not that I knew this person, but based on what you describe) that I can readily name off the top of my head who post on a daily or almost-daily basis here on EN World. They're still here, they do nothing but cause problems, and they're basically getting away with it.

I agree 100% that there is a bit too much leniency with these Shazdars. I wrote to a moderator who publicly warned Shazdar of Today #1, but allowed the person to remain un-threadbanned with the insinuation that an apology would be highly in order.

Did the troll apologize? No.
Did the troll, in fact, continue to be insulting? Yes, once more.
Was the troll threadbanned at this point? No.

Both of the people I'm speaking of have been here a very, very long time ... which is why I'm convinced there's a disparity in how older members are treated versus newer ones, even if it's subconscious.

I'd very much like to see this change. There's nothing else on the list.

FYI, for anyone wondering: I'm not trying to be vague or oblique, but we're not supposed to be delineating anyone specific, so I've not simply said who these individuals are. But anyone who'd like to know is more than welcome to message me privately, in case anyone thinks I'm just making this all up as I go along ...

 

[Rel]

This is my point exactly, actually, Rel. You have at least 2 Shazdars (not that I knew this person, but based on what you describe) that I can readily name off the top of my head who post on a daily or almost-daily basis here on EN World. They're still here, they do nothing but cause problems, and they're basically getting away with it.

I didn't articulate one aspect of my point very well, which is the fact that Shadzar was a fairly new poster when he popped up on the radar as being troublesome. Because he was new we didn't immediately come down on him but rather instead pointed him toward the rules and told him that his tone was rather too confrontational and rude for the forums. He basically said that we'd just have to get used to it. That turns out not to be the case.

With regards to these posters whom you believe to be problematic on a daily basis, are you reporting them? I understand from your post that you PMed a mod about at least one instance. We can't be everywhere (and frankly life right now mostly has me being nowhere) on the forums so we rely upon the community to police itself. This is done the way policing is done in most civilized societies, not by vigilantism (though trust me, I understand the temptation) but by reporting what you see as problematic posts.

The rub comes where what some see as problematic, the moderators don't. I'm not saying you fall into this category, DP. But there are a few posters, who are good members of the forums in other respects, that we've had to ask to stop reporting stuff because their idea of problematic posting and ours are not in synch.

Anyway, if you think something is a problem then report it every time you see it. We'll fairly quickly come to understand if somebody is a problem that has been flying under our radar.

 

[DumbPaladin]

I really should have reported a lot of the behavior I've seen when I first came here, but I was new and didn't think reporting was for anything beyond extremely blatant attacks filled with epithets and slander. The only thing I've ever reported is spam.

Now, the people I'm referring to are on my ignore list ... so I really don't run into their nastiness anymore.

 

[Rel]

I really should have reported a lot of the behavior I've seen when I first came here, but I was new and didn't think reporting was for anything beyond extremely blatant attacks filled with epithets and slander. The only thing I've ever reported is spam.

Now, the people I'm referring to are on my ignore list ... so I really don't run into their nastiness anymore.

Well that's exactly what you should have done. Glad it has made the site more pleasant for you.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I have had my share of discussions with moderators (usually when I am being a dick, not always when I realize it until they point it out), and I have questioned mod decisions in the past (generally through the use of PM or email). Once or twice, a mod even reversed a decision on that basis. Far more often, I have been forced to reconsider my own posting habits.

EN World moderation is excellent. There are few instances I could point out that are real out-and-out fails, and certainly fewer than there would be were it me doing the job. And, from PMs and emails I have gotten, I can assure you that, simply because an admonition doesn't show up in the thread, it doesn't mean that the mods are ignoring it. There really are things going on behind the curtain.

My appreciation of EN World's moderation has only grown the longer I have posted here. Really, if they were to flock en masse to Toronto, I'd have to buy them all a round. And I would be lucky if they'd accept, sit down, and tell me the story about Piratecat's mule from the top.

I will concur that there have been cycles when EN World's moderation seemed better, and cycles when it has seemed worse, but looking back on it, I imagine there's a strategic "This is what we have to deal with; anyone have any ideas?" going on behind the curtain. What sometimes seems like "worse moderation" may well be an attempt to deal with a problem before it arose. I prefer, now, to give the benefit of the doubt.

One only needs to look at other popular gaming forums to see how much better the moderation is on EN World than many other sites. There are a few I would rank as highly, mind you, but many, many more that I would rank far worse.

And no one is obligated to provide that service. I am grateful that they choose to do so.


RC

 

[The Shaman]

I think it's hilarious when a moderator calls posters jerks in the same post the mod is telling them to be civil to one another.

Way to set the tone, kids.

 

[DumbPaladin]

Well that's exactly what you should have done. Glad it has made the site more pleasant for you.

It does nothing for everyone else who hasn't yet put these people on ignore lists, however. The site is still being polluted by these individuals, for them.

 

[DumbPaladin]

I think it's hilarious when a moderator calls posters jerks in the same post the mod is telling them to be civil to one another.

Way to set the tone, kids.

I saw that, too. I was also disgusted by it.

I called the moderator privately on it. Did you?

If Morrus starts getting enough unique complaints about moderator behavior, he may actually DO something about it.

But I've got news for you: it's not going to change anytime soon if no one does anything about it, and even if any of us try to civilly address it, there's a HIGH degree of probability that it'll never change. That's what happens when the regulators are self-regulating. It's pretty much a fact of human nature. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

There are exactly two courses of action available to us in matters such as the thread you described:
1) Protest, and push the issue forward, without letting it drop;
2) Find a wholly different message board to frequent.

Hate to say it, but that's all we can do. We have absolutely no authority here, and I am unconvinced anyone "up there" is particularly concerned with our points, primarily because they disagree entirely.

 

[Piratecat]

I think it's hilarious when a moderator calls posters jerks in the same post the mod is telling them to be civil to one another.

Way to set the tone, kids.

Hmm. I'm sure I've done that.

Here's the deal. We expect people to behave like adults and to get along. If they can't do that - on the rare occasion that there's infantile squabbling instead of real discourse and a genuine disagreement - I don't feel a lot of remorse about expressing my displeasure. That can either be done privately, when that's the most effective solution, or it can mean making a public example out of the people who are misbehaving. That doesn't happen too often, but when it does it's generally well deserved and highly effective at letting people know what is unacceptable behavior.

There's a big difference between people arguing and people being jerks. I'm happy to make that distinction.

One thing that has greatly helped is that we now flag the first post that starts a chain of problem, editing it with mod-text to make it clear that this isn't okay. That also helps set standards and expectations for people reading. When the post that makes you furious is already flagged, you're less likely to respond in kind.

I also make a point of not moderating in anger. There are a very few people in this world who make me see red, but one or two of them post here. I let other people moderate them when necessary, because I'm not sure I'd give them a fair shake. Similarly, if someone makes us really angry we're likely to give them a few days off and discuss it in the Moderator Forum before deciding on a final action. I have no problem apologizing or reversing a decision if we think we've made a mistake, and we always get multi-mod input on the tricky cases.

Sometimes, though, members think someone is being a troll just because they don't happen to agree with them. From a neutral third-party perspective it's often not the case. That's when ignore lists prove invaluable. If someone is smart and interesting, I would always rather rehab their posting style than boot them off the site because of temporary friction. Different opinions are interesting so long as you're not coming off as a jerk when you're expressing them.

 

[Raven Crowking]

[MENTION=2]Piratecat[/MENTION]: I can run a game as well.

Either that is going to make Toronto look better, or it's going to save me some beer money!