Rule of 3 3/21

[Walking Dad]

While it's true that martial classes can't get much support via builds like thief and slayer, it's also true that marital classes were the ones with the most support pre-essentials. They were all there from day 1, and they are the only power source to have received a second book. The Thief, Slayer, Knight builds are also ones that don't necessarily require much support (just new build options, not really new powers other than utility). The builds for the the other classes are more than just weapon selection giving specific riders.

So, because martial classes had enough support, they should be get no more after essentials?

If anything, it's closing in on the lead that the martial classes had. Instead of Arcane Power 2 or Divine Power 2, there is the Heroes books and Heroes of Shadow.

Also, comparing to other X Power books, there were already classes with that power source introduced before. It's more like PHB2 or 3 where a new power source was intro'd, but it also had some older power sources in the book as well.

Actually, your second paragraph is strengthening my thesis that the Heroes book are the new PH and not the new Power line.

 

[MrMyth]

See the cutted paragraph of the post you just quoted:

Short: Because both products (PHB+ and HotFL/FK) contain the player basic rules.

Except the point is about support for prior products, not whether such products are standalone. Psionic Power is "backwards compatible" with the PHB, but only provides support for the PHB3. The fact that HoS provides more support for the most recent product (HotFL/FK) doesn't change the fact that it also provides support for the PHB as well - and more support that other previous books (like Psionic Power and Primal Power).

Focusing support on recent products isn't a new trend.

Your original claim is that they are wrong to state that both Essentials and the old format are both supported, and this is because HoS provides more support for HotFK/FL. My point, here, is that you don't have enough data to make that claim. If someone made the exact same claim when Psionic Power came out - that it proved that all support for previous classes was now abandoned - we would all find it fundamentally absurd.

Making the same claim now, just with some other products referenced, is just as ridiculous.

We have HoS, now, providing significantly more support for prior material than either of those supplement books did.

I don't see it this way. See further above of this post.

How can you not see it that way? It is absolute fact that a player with the PHB will find more support for their characters in Heroes of Shadow than they did in Psionic Power.

IF HoS has material exclusively usable with HotFL/HotFK, but no material exclusively usable with the PHB line, HoS supports the former and is just compatible with the later.

It is this disclaimer here that is what I really don't get. You only find it acceptable content if it specifically excludes being used by certain characters?

 

[Incenjucar]

I'm absolutely comfortable with the idea of Martial not getting any more support until the other power sources have an equal amount of support. More specifically, I'm comfortable with individual classes with lots of support not receiving support until classes which lack support receive support.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I'm absolutely comfortable with the idea of Martial not getting any more support until the other power sources have an equal amount of support. More specifically, I'm comfortable with individual classes with lots of support not receiving support until classes which lack support receive support.

"Those responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked have been sacked."

 

[WalterKovacs]

The post below quasi answers it:

Or said differently:
IF HoS has material exclusively usable with HotFL/HotFK, but no material exclusively usable with the PHB line, HoS supports the former and is just compatible with the later.
Maybe not the right definition of these terms, but what I wanted to say.

In that case, any encounter powers for the death domain warpriest domain is usable with the PHB line but is not usable with HotFL/HotFK. The only warpriest that can use those powers is the HoS warpriest.

Similarly, if what I heard was true, and the binder has encounter powers with levels, those two are only usable by PHB warlocks (and binders), and not hexblades. Again, only the PHB and HoS warlocks benefit, not the HotFL/HotFK.

 

[Walking Dad]

Except the point is about support for prior products, not whether such products are standalone. Psionic Power is "backwards compatible" with the PHB, but only provides support for the PHB3. The fact that HoS provides more support for the most recent product (HotFL/FK) doesn't change the fact that it also provides support for the PHB as well - and more support that other previous books (like Psionic Power and Primal Power).

Focusing support on recent products isn't a new trend.

Your original claim is that they are wrong to state that both Essentials and the old format are both supported, and this is because HoS provides more support for HotFK/FL. My point, here, is that you don't have enough data to make that claim. If someone made the exact same claim when Psionic Power came out - that it proved that all support for previous classes was now abandoned - we would all find it fundamentally absurd.

Making the same claim now, just with some other products referenced, is just as ridiculous.

Why should have anyone thought that Psionic Powers would provide material for Martial, Arcane, Divine or Primal characters?

No offense, but to use your words, I think comparing this is ridiculous.
Do you deny that HotFL/FK provide players with the needed base rules to play?

How can you not see it that way? It is absolute fact that a player with the PHB will find more support for their characters in Heroes of Shadow than they did in Psionic Power.

a) It is also a fact, that a player with only the PHB has absolutely no reason to buy Primal / Psionic Power. But if you play a primal / psionic hero, you know it is supported in there.
Heroes of Shadow provides material for the Cleric... but not the Str Cleric from what I know so far and what I assume. Same for the Cha Paladin.

b) This is not a valid point for my above definition of support.

It is this disclaimer here that is what I really don't get. You only find it acceptable content if it specifically excludes being used by certain characters?

Never said that.
But it looks like that HoS indeed excludes Con-locks, Cha-ladins and Wis-clerics, while providing material for the other build.

Coincidence, or because the builds are not part of HotFL/FK?

 

[WalterKovacs]

So, because martial classes had enough support, they should be get no more after essentials?

Well, that would be the definition of "enough" ... no need for more. And, regardless, they ARE getting more support anyway, via the class compendium articles. They were going to get a book instead of just Dragon articles, but for some reason it was cancelled. It may be they didn't want to overload players.

Actually, your second paragraph is strengthening my thesis that the Heroes book are the new PH and not the new Power line.

The original two were the "new" PHB1. Heroes of Shadow and Heroes of the Feywild, are an amalgam of the later PHB's and the Power lines. Part of the reason they did Essentials was the the old system wasn't working. See also: Dark Sun. The system of having a player's book for a setting, and a DM's book didn't really work. So instead the two books were combined, and the second book became a monster book. Monster books and Player's books sell better than a full on fluff book for DM's.

Similarly, the old system required many books to make a class playable. For example, they put out PHB2. It has some new implements. They have a very small amount of generic magic items in the book ... so they can save the meatier ones for Adventurer's Vault 2. They also have only 2 builds each, to keep the rest for Primal Power. So, to get the "full" druid experience, someone would need to get all 3 books. The newer system compresses that (although I don't know about magic items ... mostly they are piggy backing off the backlog of existing items. It helps that it isn't really introducing any new weapon/implement types) into a single book. Also, the method of appending the power source onto existing classes also means they can get around the problem they had with ki as a power source, where they couldn't come up with new classes for different roles to fit the source.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Never said that.
But it looks like that HoS indeed excludes Con-locks, Cha-ladins and Str-clerics, while providing material for the other build.

Coincidence, or because the builds are not part of HotFL/FK?

Actually, it's because those buildsare not part of HoS. Technically speaking, all the powers are for the new schools/pact/domain or for the new class builds. So, they support those. They are also usable by other builds of the same class. With the mage, if they are low enough level, they can pick up one of the new schools at level 4. Regardless, any wizard or mage can take the powers (outside of a few, like the summon they spoiled). For clerics, they can take all the powers for the cleric (the warpriests of different domains unable to get the encounter powers from a different domain). Hexblades and warlocks only have access to the daily and utility powers for the dusk pact hexblade.

So, technically speaking, it's all reverse compatible. It "supports" HotFL/FK in introducing new "sub-builds" of the mage, warpriest and hexblade, but otherwise the level of "support" for those classes is equal to, if not less than, support for the PHB. Not ALL of the PHB, but the parts that it does support. The mage schools are very specific in the types of powers they like ... the implement mastery wizards (at least those that aren't locked into a keyword like the tome summoner or orb illusionist) are more likely to cherry pick new powers for their spellbook. I've already mentioned the cleric/warpriest distinction.

 

[MrMyth]

Why should have anyone thought that Psionic Powers would provide material for Martial, Arcane, Divine or Primal characters?

That's the point, though - of course Psionic Power didn't provide support for those earlier classes. That didn't mean that this one product represented all development going forward.

No offense, but to use your words, I think comparing this is ridiculous.
Do you deny that HotFL/FK provide players with the needed base rules to play?

Not at all. What I deny is that HotFL/FK having the basic rules of play somehow means that it cannot provide support for PHB characters. And Heroes of Shadow, meanwhile, does not provide those rules - and can thus be used with either the PHB or with HotFL/FK.

a) It is also a fact, that a player with only the PHB has absolutely no reason to buy Primal Power. But if you play a primal hero, you know it is supported in there.
Heroes of Shadow provides material for the Cleric... but not the Str Cleric from what I know so far and what I assume. Same for the Cha Paladin.

If your concern is that they should make it clearer which types of Cleric is supported, I suppose there is an argument to be made there. But to say that because it doesn't support the Str Cleric, the support for the Wisdom Cleric doesn't count - that doesn't make any sense to me.

Again, looking at earlier products - the FRPG provides the Dark Pact, which only helps Charisma based Warlocks. Yet it still counts as support for the PHB, right?

This is not a valid point for my above definition of support.

And that definition just isn't a reasonable one, in my opinion. If I'm playing a PHB Wizard, Heroes of the Fallen Lands provides some 40-50 new powers for me to choose from, and some 20-30 new feats of use.

Arcane Power provided 94 new powers, and maybe 40-50 new feats of use. Now, what did it provide exclusively for the Wizard, which wouldn't be of any use to the Mage? New Arcane Implement Mastery options.

Of course... that covered less than a page of new content.

What's the difference between the rest? I mean, powers are really the bulk of the character options in 4E. Sure, Arcane Power is providing more content. But is that reason to actually dismiss the content in HotFL as not being support? Those powers are just as useful to the PHB Wizard. The absence of a single page of 'unique' and 'exclusive' content in the form of new class features... sure, feel free to miss it. But to say that, without it, no support is being provided... just doesn't ring true to me.

But it looks like that HoS indeed excludes Con-locks, Cha-ladins and Wis-clerics, while providing material for the other build.

And, again - I'm not sure it matters. The lack of support for one thing does not cancel out support for something else.

The question at hand is whether HoS provides support for PHB characters. And, in the end, it does.

 

[Tony Vargas]

If you look at the 'support' given by Essentials and post-E content, in terms of past products or classes, you clearly see that there is some stuff that's passing through. The Wizard, a PH1 class, gets plenty of new powers in HotFL and HoS, for instance. So, sure, you can say that 'the PH1 is being supported.'

If you look at it by Source, OTOH, you see a very different picture. The Warpriest and Mage offer many powers to the Cleric and Mage. The Knight, Slayer, and Theif have very few for the Fighter or Rogue, because they use a different class structure. By the same token, past products don't offer a lot of support to the Kinght, Slayer or Theif, compared to what they have waiting for the Warpriest and Mage. The pattern holds true in HotFK and HoS. New content is useable by some previous Divine, Primal and Arcane classes, less - or none - to previous Martial classes.