How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

But you can't really expect one balancing tool to work at its full effectiveness if another one its related to is relaxed.

I absolutely agree with that. However, I'm just offering additional support for my overall position, which is "Yes, in theory the spell learning % chance and the maximum number of spells known per level served to balance wizards; in practice, I don't believe they did as much as many people are claiming they did, for the reasons stated."

Oh, yeah, and you didn't have the huge number of castings per day that you got in 3e, so most casters had to marshal their spell resources carefully, IME. When I was playing a magic-user, the ability to give intelligent advice during exploration + whatever uncast spells I had left were always of greater value than whatever spells had already been cast.

Walk with me a moment ...

The difference between a 1st-level Wizard in 3E and a 1st-level Wizard in 2E (the non-3E+ version I'm most familiar with) is: 1 1st-level spell (due to bonus from Int) and 3 Cantrips.

Now, for some reason, I don't have the 2E spell progression tables memorized ( ), but I do recall that, like in 3E, I got 1 2nd-level spell at level 3, and 1 3rd-level spell at 5, so I don't imagine that it's all that different. (I'm open to being wrong here, though, if someone has their book in front of them.) So, at those levels, anyway, the difference will, again, be the +1 additional spell due to a high Int.

Accepting that cantrips aren't particularly useful spells most of the time, I don't see that there's all that many spells more in 3E than in 2E ...

... until you start counting self-crafted scrolls.

That's where I really see the difference showing up - the well-prepared 3E wizard has a lot more triicks up his sleeve, simply because he can, with a relatively modest amount of gold and XP expenditure, ensure that his "useable once in a blue moon spells" are always availble, and fill his memorized slots with "needed on a daily basis" stuff - like combat spells.

The real problem with scrolls is that D&D's always had a bit of a psychosis in regards to them (and most other magic items, too). The previous editions of the rules made them out to be ridiculously rare and nigh-impossible to create (requiring basilisk blood ink and cockatrice feather quills to scribe a simple scroll of Sleep), but then tossed them around willy-nilly in treasure troves. This is one of those things that never made sense to me - and 3E's solution (even low-level wizards can scribe low-level scrolls) has created its own problems.

As far as the traveling mage and spellbooks go, isn't that why people created traveling spellbooks?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Walk with me for a moment.....

Your 1st level 1e magic-user? He has one spell. When he uses it, it is gone.

And he selects that from four spells, one of which is read magic, and the other three of which are determined randomly.

I repeat. When he uses it, it is gone.

As for travelling spellbooks, 1e has a little something called "item saving throws", which mean that, come fireball or fall, equipment can and will be destroyed. Even a little dip in the underground pool at the end of that chute can mean the end of your travelling books. And why do you carry them into the dungeon, anyway? The best thing to do is leave them at your base camp, with your full set at home, hidden and guarded. It isn't as though you are likely to gain 8 hours of uninterrupted rest, or the chance to memorize them afterwards (or, at least, not once you become a level where they are affordable).


RC

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Just to understand - are you saying starting with a 16 Int for a wizard is poor? A 16 anything is pretty impressive from my experience. I know everyone says "mileage may vary" but assuming gameplay by the vanilla rules, a 16 is fairly uncommon from 3d6. Sure, house rules will usually be in play for stat generation, and I have seen quite a few that generate some very high stats to start. Perfectly legit way to play, but the only issue is people forget to differentiate their game is a "high powered" game and we hear balance complaints and such...

I had a longer post here, but ENWorld ate it. In summary:

1) I meant "less than 16" but forgot the "less than" part. I'll fix it. I suspect that most long-running wizards had 16+ Int, and I bet 17+ was more likely - but that's just a suspicion.

2) I further suspect that long-running characters had better stats than 3d6-in-order would indicate because of player preferences, very common house-rules obviating 3d6-in-order, and higher-lethality of earlier versions killing off weaker characters disproportionately. This is backed up by personal experience at multiple gaming tables across the country, but it's just an anecdote.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Walk with me for a moment.....

Your 1st level 1e magic-user? He has one spell. When he uses it, it is gone.

And he selects that from four spells, one of which is read magic, and the other three of which are determined randomly.

I repeat. When he uses it, it is gone.

What do you mean, "gone"?

It's only gone until he sleeps and memorizes it again. Just like the 3E wizard. Except the 3E wizard has 2 Sleep spells memorized - which means he isn't useless in two combats, instead of 1.

And why do you carry them into the dungeon, anyway? The best thing to do is leave them at your base camp, with your full set at home, hidden and guarded. It isn't as though you are likely to gain 8 hours of uninterrupted rest, or the chance to memorize them afterwards (or, at least, not once you become a level where they are affordable).

You never spiked a room shut and took a nap while exploring a megadungeon? Or left the dungeon and retreated to your fortified camp an hour's march away?

I mean, maybe I'm way off base here, but we did that all the time while playing 2E.

 

[billd91]

The real problem with scrolls is that D&D's always had a bit of a psychosis in regards to them (and most other magic items, too). The previous editions of the rules made them out to be ridiculously rare and nigh-impossible to create (requiring basilisk blood ink and cockatrice feather quills to scribe a simple scroll of Sleep), but then tossed them around willy-nilly in treasure troves. This is one of those things that never made sense to me - and 3E's solution (even low-level wizards can scribe low-level scrolls) has created its own problems.

3e's approach - making magic items easy to make and/or get - does lead to some problems including the Big 6 and wizards with utility items out the wazoo. But I think you're overstating the dichotomies of 1e/2e. Yes, scrolls were odd to make, based mostly on DM poetic fiat (and at least being a 7th level caster) but I'm not sure I'd say they were tossed about willy-nilly. They made up 15% of your random treasure hoard and only 60% of those were actually spell scrolls (the rest were cursed or protection scrolls). And 30% of those, in turn, were clerical. That's some fair moderation, I'd say.

 

[Raven Crowking]

What do you mean, "gone"?

It's only gone until he sleeps and memorizes it again.

The time requirements in 1e were, let us say, tougher than in any later edition. Now, I don't have my books on me, but I am sure I will be corrected if I misspeak: Our magic-user needs 8 hours of uninterrupted rest followed by 1 hour of uninterrupted study in order to regain his single spell.

Imagine our same wizard with two first and one second level spells. He now needs eight hours of sleep followed by four hours of study to regain his spells.

1e also has a base 1 in 6 chance of a wandering monster every 10 minutes (mileage varying by location).

Your fortified base camp 1 hour from the dungeon? Well, you'd better hope that nothing followed you home, and that there were no wilderness encounters, or that you hired man-at-arms enough to prevent the lowly magic-user from being disturbed.

And that uninterrupted rest? It means that your casters cannot be counted on for a turn at watch.

These were strictures that 2e loosened up on, and 3e moreso. Not only that, but the 1e DM was told to roll those wandering monsters unless the players had been damn careful about where they camped, whereas the 2e DM was told to try to keep the players alive regardless.

And, frankly, just spiking a room shut and taking a nap is a good way to die. I've done it, sure. As an act of desperation, or when I found a place waaaayyyyy off the beaten track. But, more often than not, it was a foolish act.

(I once had a paladin who "cleared" a dungeon. And then, wounded and thinking I was safe, I chose to take a nap. Too bad I didn't discover that secret door.......)


RC

 

[billd91]

The time requirements in 1e were, let us say, tougher than in any later edition. Now, I don't have my books on me, but I am sure I will be corrected if I misspeak: Our magic-user needs 8 hours of uninterrupted rest followed by 1 hour of uninterrupted study in order to regain his single spell.

Ask and ye shall receive...
I have my 1e DMG right nearby. And it's not entirely as bleak as that.
The spellcaster needs a certain amount of rest to regain spells based on the highest level of spells he wants to regain. It starts at 4 hours for 1st and 2nd level spells, 6 hours for 3-4th level, 8 hours for 5-6th levels, 10 hours for 7-8th, and 12 whopping hours for 9th level spells.

And that's not all. Each spell level to be recovered requires 15 minutes. For first level spells, that's 15 minutes each. Second level spells 30 minutes each, etc.

I can't find anything about interruptions but I think I've looked long enough to make the point that recovering spells in 1e takes a LOT longer than 3e. Fire off a bunch of spells and you'll be spending substantial amounts of time recovering them.

EDIT: This is one reason, for those following these rules, that spellcasters were a bit more careful to conserve their resources in 1e.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Thanks. Must spread XP around and all that.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And that's where I and a lot of the guys I play with cut our teeth in gaming. That playstyle tends to stick with you...

 

[triqui]

"But Sauron is a Maia, and would detect and counter such uses of magic. Not only would we not appear on Mount Doom, but we may well appear before his black throne in Barad Dur. Worse, the attempt might well alert him to what we plan, and then all chances of success would fail."

and

"If you think lighting a little fire to keep us from freezing to death is going to draw unwanted attention, what do you imagine attempting to teleport is going to do?"

The plot of LotR is predicated in no small amount on its magic system, and vice versa. That this is true doesn't mean that another magic system will prevent all other plots....or even a LotR-like plot, with a bit of work.

"not really, Sauron was aware of it's surrounding pretty much only at the end of the story, when he was closer to reform, and only around Mordor. Prior to that, he wasn't able to pinpoint Gandalf even if he used great powerful spells. For example, in the Battle against the Balrog, or comunicating with the Eagle Lord, and the Fellowship actually DID light more than a few fires in their run through most of Middle earth, when outside of Mordor"

and
"don't really worry, he won't be able to react. Just like when he was aware of Frodo in Mount Doom, he wasn't really able to do anything, but setting the alarms on and calling the Nazguls back. So if I, Gandalf, start a teleport in, say, Bree's Tavern, long before the Nazguls came to me, we'll be into Mount Doom"

and
"don't really worry, I'm a high level Wizard. I know "teleport without error"

comes to mind to counter your "handweave DM fiat".

I suppose that rather depends upon what you want from the game, doesn't it?

I want a game that can't have it's plot busted, the story avoided, or the narration shortcut to the end, which is exactly what I said. Going from chapter 1 "The Story Begins" to chapter 19 "Fall of the Bad Guy" without even touching any of the wonderful 2 to 18 chapters suck in my opinion, from a narrative standpoint. YMMV, of course.

Curiosity compels me to ask, which castersa are you referring to with Beowulf and Achilles, and how do you know their levels?

Beowulf defeated a magic demon (Grendel) with magic powers, and Grendel's Mother, which is a Hag. Beowulf level isn't set on stone (just like Aragorn's level isn't), but it's quite epic level (being able to singlehandlely defeat a Dragon, where Aragorn needed a full group of Adventureres to defeat a baby troll).

Same goes with Achilles (or Perseus, or Jason, or any other of the Greek Heroes). My point is, regarding to the OP, that when in fiction the spellcaster is much more powerful than the martial guy, it's not becouse of magic being more powerful than martial training, but becouse of the comparative levels of
the Characters. Yes, both Merlin and Gandalf have power beyond Arthur or Aragorn, but that's becouse of the comparative levels of them. Merlin and Gandalf are plot devices, not "player characters", and thus aren't comparable to the main casting. However, Morgana isn't really much more powerful than Lancelot, and there are several first age warrior-type elves that can surpase Gandalf ability. Glorfindel defeats a Balrog using a club and a dagger, and Feanor or Fingolfin used to fight BATALLIONS of Balrogs.

I suppose that rather depends upon what sort of balance you want from the game, and whether or not using the nuke and/or shotgun kills me as well as you, doesn't it?

That would be true, IF the only weapon I have is the nuke, which is not the case. When one of the war contendants have only a shotgun, and the other one has an array of weapons that go from a knife (which is silent, and also useful for out of combat stuff like skinning), a pistol (which is almost as good as a shotgun, plus can be concealed), a shotgun, PLUS a nuclear weapon (which has some big hindrances, of course, but you dont have to use if you dont want, there is no balance. I, the mage, can downgrade my level of effectiveness to fighter level if I want, or in the fights that I dont really care or cant be arsed to employ my real potential. However, when the real danger appears, I *do* have a nuclear weapon, while the other guy *does not*

And that happens mostly in RPG (and only in D&D-style RPG, for that matter). Fiction never (or almost never) has uber-powerful plot-ending spells. More often than not, they don't even have "teleport". Same goes with other non-D&D style RPG: A Legend of the Five Rings Shugenja isn't really more powerful than a LoFR Bushi.