Mearls' Legends and Lore - poll on delve format for adventures

[Dannager]

It increases page-flipping in a game, which I already work to actively minimize.

Wat.

The encounter format that puts the entire encounter on two opposite-facing pages, including full monster stat blocks (so you don't need to flip through the Monster Manual), full terrain feature rules (so you don't need to flip through the Dungeon Master's Guide), and full skill check rules (so you don't need to flip through the Player's Handbook) increases page-flipping?

The only page flipping you have to do with the Delve format is before or after combat, when you return to the adventure write-up. The whole point of the Delve format was to eliminate page-flipping during an encounter.

 

[Dannager]

Here is what I would like the next format of adventure layout to look like: the way it was before - with no artificial distinction between the encounter and the rest of the adventure. That's my suggestion.

With the understanding that this would require you to have open any relevant monster books, traps/terrain from the DMG, and skill uses from the PHB, and reference all of these books in addition to the adventure itself while running a typical encounter?

Because that's the way it was before.

Also, how is separating encounters from the rest of the adventure "artificial"? It's a concocted fantasy adventure. The whole thing is artificial.

 

[Alzrius]

Wat.

The encounter format that puts the entire encounter on two opposite-facing pages, including full monster stat blocks (so you don't need to flip through the Monster Manual), full terrain feature rules (so you don't need to flip through the Dungeon Master's Guide), and full skill check rules (so you don't need to flip through the Player's Handbook) increases page-flipping?

The only page flipping you have to do with the Delve format is before or after combat, when you return to the adventure write-up. The whole point of the Delve format was to eliminate page-flipping during an encounter.

And in that regard it's failed pretty badly.

If you're reading the main body of the adventure, you'll read the text for room A when the PC's enter it, and then flip the pages to the delve encounter in the room. When the encounter's over, you flip back to the main body of the adventure...and then the PCs enter room B. You read the material for room B, and then flip the pages to the delve encounter in the room. Rinse and repeat for as many rooms have encounters.

Even leaving aside having to flip back and forth during the combat encounter for when the PCs ask about things that were part of the basic room description but not the delve description (or vice versa), that's already more page flipping than you'd do if all of the details about rooms A & B were printed in the main body of the adventure when the rooms are first described.

With the understanding that this would require you to have open any relevant monster books, traps/terrain from the DMG, and skill uses from the PHB, and reference all of these books in addition to the adventure itself while running a typical encounter?

Because that's the way it was before.

First, that's only true if the stat blocks in question are generic; specific NPCs, for example, have their full stat blocks printed right there. Secondly, those books will be open anyway in virtually all cases; I've yet to see an adventure that didn't require the three Core Rulebooks so that you can adjudicate things like treasure values (DMG), summoned monsters (MM), or any of a million other (unexpected) circumstances that come up during the course of a game.

Some page-flipping is inevitable; that's a given. But it should be cut down as much as is reasonably possible. Reprinting every single generic stat block isn't a reasonable trade-off (since it takes up too much space and fills up the two-page spread), and isolating the encounter from the area is counter-productive.

Also, how is separating encounters from the rest of the adventure "artificial"? It's a concocted fantasy adventure. The whole thing is artificial.

You're confusing the use of the term "artificial" here. Saying "it's a fantasy, it's artificial," is like saying to people who want more "realism," "it's a fantasy game, none of it's real."

The people who want more "realism" want more internal consistency and logic. Similarly, the "artificial" distinction between the adventure and the encounter is that the book is separating one from the other when there's no real need to do so. Print the encounter information in the body of the adventure itself, when and where the PCs are likely to encounter it. Segregating it away in its own section doesn't make things easier.

 

[Dannager]

If you're reading the main body of the adventure, you'll read the text for room A when the PC's enter it, and then flip the pages to the delve encounter in the room. When the encounter's over, you flip back to the main body of the adventure...and then the PCs enter room B. You read the material for room B, and then flip the pages to the delve encounter in the room. Rinse and repeat for as many rooms have encounters.

So what you're saying is I'd have to flip the pages like four times an hour.

As opposed to rifling through four different books multiple times during every single encounter.

And the latter situation is more desirable, somehow?

Even leaving aside having to flip back and forth during the combat encounter for when the PCs ask about things that were part of the basic room description but not the delve description (or vice versa),

A Delve encounter write-up done correctly contains the room description. And, even if it doesn't, that's one page to flip to and from. One. That's cake to manage. Monsters in multiple locations in multiple Monster Manuals? The traps section of the DMG and the terrain features section of the DMG? The Acrobatics skill and the Thievery skill in the PHB? That's heinous.

that's already more page flipping than you'd do if all of the details about rooms A & B were printed in the main body of the adventure when the rooms are first described.

Yes, as long as you don't count the three other books you'd need to be flipping through at the same time, because the encounter's details aren't all laid out for you in the adventure.

First, that's only true if the stat blocks in question are generic;

By "generic", you mean "printed in sourcebooks". Which is, y'know, most monsters.

specific NPCs, for example, have their full stat blocks printed right there.

Yes, and that's wonderful when you have an encounter of nothing but NPCs custom-made for the adventure. It's terrible every other time.

Secondly, those books will be open anyway in virtually all cases;

No they won't. I never have any of those books open in front of me when I DM.

I've yet to see an adventure that didn't require the three Core Rulebooks so that you can adjudicate things like treasure values (DMG)

Treasure allotment should be handled prior to the game, not during. Talk about a good way to ask your players to sit still for a few minutes while you figure out what the bad guys had on them.

summoned monsters (MM),

What summoned monsters? I run 4e. If it's possible to bring new monsters into the mix, those monsters' stat blocks are included in the Delve presentation.

or any of a million other (unexpected) circumstances that come up during the course of a game.

My DM's screen provides the DCs I need for these situations.

Some page-flipping is inevitable; that's a given.

Yes, it is. I prefer my page-flipping to occur before or after the encounter, not in the middle when it can stall the action.

But it should be cut down as much as is reasonably possible.

This is exactly why having to flip pages a few times an hour using the Delve format is infinitely preferable to flipping pages constantly through four different books during the encounter itself using the old format.

Reprinting every single generic stat block isn't a reasonable trade-off (since it takes up too much space and fills up the two-page spread),

The Delve format has been doing it that way for years. Furthermore, as we increasingly see a transition to digitally-assisted play, space considerations will become a thing of the past (and perhaps so will page-flipping).

and isolating the encounter from the area is counter-productive.

Not significantly enough to justify returning to those barbarian days where the DM peeked his head up over a pile of sourcebooks behind the DM screen.

You're confusing the use of the term "artificial" here. Saying "it's a fantasy, it's artificial," is like saying to people who want more "realism," "it's a fantasy game, none of it's real."

The people who want more "realism" want more internal consistency and logic. Similarly, the "artificial" distinction between the adventure and the encounter is that the book is separating one from the other when there's no real need to do so.

Really?

I, for one, have always felt like there is a designated break in manner of play as soon as the words "Roll for initiative," are uttered. The Delve format allows you to zoom in on the action when that happens.

Print the encounter information in the body of the adventure itself, when and where the PCs are likely to encounter it. Segregating it away in its own section doesn't make things easier.

Less page-flipping, fewer books, better organization, and the trade-off is...the perceived artificiality of a transition to combat?

 

[Alzrius]

Your stance seems to be largely based around reprinting the stat blocks for generic monsters in published adventures to reduce page-flipping.

Personally, I'm against that, since it means that you're paying for some content that you already own. But if you think it's worth the cost, that's your opinion; I disagree, and most of the people I game with disagree also.

In fact, if you remove that idea, your point seems to largely fall apart. Sure, it'd be nice if a given adventure reprinted everything so that you don't have to ever consult another book while running it, but having it list all of the feats, powers, generic monsters, etc. doesn't seem to be worthwhile (at least to me).

You seem to be of the opinion that page-flipping is entirely removable; maybe so, but in most practical contexts I've seen, that's not the case. PCs or the GM need to look up a magic item or feat again; monsters are summoned (not everyone plays 4E, after all) - that can't be helped. What can be helped is not having to flip back and forth from the body of the adventure to the back where the encounter information is located.

And even if we leave that aside, why can't those monster stat blocks be reprinted in the body of the adventure where the PCs meet them? How is it better to stick them in a two-page area in the back of the book? To summarize, it isn't. Just put the monsters where you meet the monsters.

That's not even taking into account the idea that a hard limit of two pages might not be enough to list all of the given information for an area - you say a good delve encounter will list all of the information for an area and its inhabitants. If there's simply not enough room to fit all of the information in two pages, then it's going to be split up no matter what you do.

The delve format might have been a good concept, but in actuality reprinting things from the books (like the MM) that a GM will have anyway in the name of convenience isn't worthwhile. I'd rather have a little page-flipping than buy the same content over and over; that's still no reason to remove the encounter information from the location information where the encounter happens.

 

[Lanefan]

Having run some delve-format adventures, I'll add my voice to those saying the format is sadly lacking as it is now.

There's hope for it though, after a fashion; with the following changes:

1. One map per dungeon level. Only one. It covers the entire level. It is physically separate from the adventure booklet, with each room/area clearly labelled and-or numbered. All relevant information is on this map including (where required, which isn't always) starting locations for opponents. These separate maps for the DM completely replace battlemaps, which often give away far too much information about areas the characters cannot have seen yet and are thus (almost always) useless.

Now there is no need to waste space in the adventure book with a separate map for each area. Pleasant side effect: it becomes much easier to see and remember how the different areas interact with each other when viewed on an overall map; it's easy to forget such when you're concentrating on a map of only one room.

2. Reduce the size of the in-book monster stat blocks. Come up with a shorthand form that gets the relevant info across without using the space-eating 4e format. If needs must, put the 4e-format stat blocks on a physically separate-from-the-book sheet somewhere for easy reference. That said, leave the basic monster info where it is. The 3e format of having all the monster write-ups together at the beginning or end was a bloody pain.

2a. Some delve adventures list treasure carried by monsters in the "treasure" block rather than with the monster write-up where it makes sense. Fail.

3. Now the stat blocks are reduced in size and the maps are gone, go for one page or less per room/area. If this means using a smaller font and less white space, good. In cases where there's lots going on in an area, expand to a page and a half or two pages.

Look back at 1e modules for examples on how to save space. Much less page-flipping is required when several areas are described on the same page!

4. Take much more care with how the "boxed descriptions" are written. Far too often they assume (wrongly) the PCs are entering from a particular direction and can see the whole area.

5. Then, design bigger and-or more complex adventures. Marauders of the Dune Sea, for example, consists of a single set-piece battle in town, a journey, another set-piece, a skill challenge, and a 7-room dungeon. Some judicious trimming of wasted space would allow for a far more elaborate dungeon complex in the same page count; the foundations are certainly there.

Lanefan

 

[mxyzplk]

I hate the delve format. First time I saw it, I was concerned, then after trying to run adventures using it I started to use it as a decision point to not buy a product - and this was all during 3.5e. (The format premiered in March of 2006!)

 

[Dannager]

Your stance seems to be largely based around reprinting the stat blocks for generic monsters in published adventures to reduce page-flipping.

Personally, I'm against that, since it means that you're paying for some content that you already own. But if you think it's worth the cost, that's your opinion; I disagree, and most of the people I game with disagree also.

Except you don't necessarily own it. Not only does reprinting the stat blocks remove the need for DMs who only run published adventures to own any Monster Manual whatsoever, it also means that if I own MM1 and MM2 but not MM3, I don't risk seeing in the adventure "Please refer to page 102 of Monster Manual 3 for this creature's stat block."

Of course, I have a DDI sub, so this doesn't apply to me in particular anyway, but a DM who started playing with the MM1 would be pretty significantly inconvenienced if new adventures made reference to the Monster Vault and he didn't own it.

In fact, if you remove that idea, your point seems to largely fall apart. Sure, it'd be nice if a given adventure reprinted everything so that you don't have to ever consult another book while running it, but having it list all of the feats, powers, generic monsters, etc. doesn't seem to be worthwhile (at least to me).

And yet 4e manages it. Whether you appreciate the format or not, it contains all the information needed to run the encounter on a 1- or 2-page spread.

You seem to be of the opinion that page-flipping is entirely removable;

Really? We just had the following exchange:

YOU: Some page-flipping is inevitable; that's a given.
ME: Yes, it is. I prefer my page-flipping to occur before or after the encounter, not in the middle when it can stall the action.

What part of that led you to believe I think page-flipping is entirely removable? It's not, unless we can transition to a format where all the material is presented digitally, and decked out with helpful search, sorting and display functions to minimize the amount of hunting you need to do.

PCs or the GM need to look up a magic item or feat again;

As long as they have their character sheet in front of them, they needn't look further than that.

monsters are summoned (not everyone plays 4E, after all) - that can't be helped.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 4e is the only system currently making use of the Delve format, yes? If you're not playing 4e, why do you care about the Delve format?

Sure, it was used in 3.5. That system is no longer in print, and its successor (or whatever Pathfinder is) does not use the Delve format. I don't really see the point of complaining about the Delve format if you don't even play the system that uses it.

What can be helped is not having to flip back and forth from the body of the adventure to the back where the encounter information is located.

This is such a minor concern as to be ridiculous. You have to change the page a few times an hour to deal with this, and the trade-off is the benefits of the Delve format I've mentioned earlier.

And even if we leave that aside, why can't those monster stat blocks be reprinted in the body of the adventure where the PCs meet them? How is it better to stick them in a two-page area in the back of the book? To summarize, it isn't. Just put the monsters where you meet the monsters.

They could be printed in the "body" of the adventure, and that would be fine, as long as they also printed all the terrain features, tactics, traps, etc. The whole point of the Delve layout is to keep all the information for a single encounter on a single 1- or 2-page spread. If you can figure out a way to do that while keeping it aligned with the "body" of the adventure, go for it.

That's not even taking into account the idea that a hard limit of two pages might not be enough to list all of the given information for an area - you say a good delve encounter will list all of the information for an area and its inhabitants. If there's simply not enough room to fit all of the information in two pages, then it's going to be split up no matter what you do.

Yes, there are some encounters which go over two pages. They are rare, but even when this happens, you have all the encounter's information on consecutive pages. There is no searching, there is no guessing, there is no flipping through multiple books. The Delve format is designed to be used in play, and for that purpose it is brilliant. Is it perfect? There is probably room for improvement, but that direction is not a return to the way things were.

The delve format might have been a good concept, but in actuality reprinting things from the books (like the MM) that a GM will have anyway in the name of convenience isn't worthwhile.

And, again, this assumes that the DM has all of these things on hand anyway, which is not a safe assumption to make. Furthermore, it assumes that there is nothing to be gained by removing the need to have yet another book open during play. Put all the stat blocks in the adventure and the Monster Manual (or whatever) can stay safely on the shelf while you play.

I'd rather have a little page-flipping than buy the same content over and over; that's still no reason to remove the encounter information from the location information where the encounter happens.

And I'd rather pay for the convenience of being able to run a game smoothly, without juggling mutliple hardcover books behind a DM's screen while trying to keep encounters moving along at an entertaining pace.

 

[Dannager]

2a. Some delve adventures list treasure carried by monsters in the "treasure" block rather than with the monster write-up where it makes sense. Fail.

Monsters don't typically make use of magic items during a fight, except as listed in their stat block. If they carry treasure, it's way easier for me as a DM to just look at the Treasure section of the encounter afterwards to tell the party what they get. Putting the party's loot in the monster stat blocks is just asking for the DM to miss some of the treasure in the encounter.

 

[Raven Crowking]

You know my feelings about the Delve format. It is the adventure format I have ever seen. You could replace it with any other format that has been used in the past, and it would be an improvement. You could invent a new format out of whole cloth, and the chances are good that it would be an improvement.

You could get Charlie Sheen to write the new format, and it would still be an improvement. Winning!