How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[Votan]

Subodai, arguably the greatest general the world has known, was carried into battle on a litter. Napoleon was known as "The Little Corporal" and I may be wrong but I don't recall evidence that he was a great hand to hand fighter. Wellington was a notoriously poor shot. I see little evidence that any of these men was a fighter. Yes, they could wield weapons. But that was about it. And classes other than fighters can wield weapons - so why insist that generals need to be fighters? There is, so far as I can tell, little mechanical support for this.

And on the other hand there are people who are fighters. The general's bodyguards. Very few generals will have been better fighters than their bodyguards. Which means the bodyguards are better fighters than the general - but somehow the general needs to be a higher level fighter than his bodyguards to be a general?

And if you look mechanically, so far as I can tell in all the skills required for generalship the bard is at least as good as the fighter - better at inspiring his troops, better at knowing the mind of his people and the enemy generals, better at knowing the terrain. And a bard with Perform (Oratory) gives great speeches. He just gets beaten round the training ring by his bodyguards (as you'd expect).

So why do you insist that the general should be a fighter? I see no scrap of mechanical support for this. And a lot of mechanics indicating that bards and clerics both do a better job.

Well, the querstion began with how does literature address the imbalance between warriors and wizards (bards and clerics just make it painful).

I see a number of ways:

1) Magic doesn't work well in combat (see Fred Saberhagen's Empire of the East) so warriors are required for fights

2) Magic is slow, subtle, and hard to use so it is not suitable for flashy use on the battlefield (Icelandic Sagas seem to fit into this category)

3) Magic isn't all that powerful so a wizard can do neat things but so can a tough warrior (Gandalf in the Hobbit seems to fall into this category)

4) Warriors have influence on the world via leadership skill and/or social status that make them able to do things mages cannot (Dragon Age and King Arthur are examples of this trope)

5) Wizards have some sort of special vulnerability or limitation that makes them rely on warriors (classical folktales are filled with these)

6) Warriors can do supernatural feats or are inherently magical (Tomas from the riftwar, Manga, Achilles)

I kind of like #4 as a way of balancing high level characters. Making the cleric better at #4 than the fighter (at the levels where clerics are hardly weak at melee) seems to be an odd way to balance the classes.

 

[Hussar]

That was a for-instance. The cohort could be a rogue, or heck, another fighter. The followers should be warriors.



I was thinking about a hundred. 1250 gp is real money until you get well into the teen levels.

Again, what? A 7th level character is expected to have 17k gp in equipment. A hundred scrolls (which is an insane number of scrolls IMO, is less than 10% of his total wealth.

Think about that for a second. By 7th level, I can cart around 100 spells for half the cost of a +1 sword.

1250 gp is chump change after about 3rd level.

 

[Raven Crowking]

So long as you don't get hit by magical fire or fall into the water......?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So long as you don't get hit by magical fire or fall into the water......?

Or a cheechchong elemental...

 

[Neonchameleon]

4) Warriors have influence on the world via leadership skill and/or social status that make them able to do things mages cannot (Dragon Age and King Arthur are examples of this trope)

...

I kind of like #4 as a way of balancing high level characters. Making the cleric better at #4 than the fighter (at the levels where clerics are hardly weak at melee) seems to be an odd way to balance the classes.

And in AD&D this is what happened. Explicitely within the rules. In 3.X, it doesn't. They took the rules to support this out. And put in rules (skills) that make the cleric better at #4 than the fighter. Namely the class skill lists. Which means that anyone trying to use the AD&D balance mechanism here is explicitely house-ruling. And just because you can house-rule to make something better doesn't mean it's not broken. (Is that the Oberoni or the Stormwind fallacy?)

Or a cheechchong elemental...

.303 Bookworms are fun.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So long as you don't get hit by magical fire or fall into the water......?

1. Items on your person don't take damage from magical fire unless extreme things happen, and even then, scrolls are way the hell down the list.

2. Handy Haversacks and magical scrollcases obviate most of that danger, anyway.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

(Is that the Oberoni or the Stormwind fallacy?)

Oberoni.

 

[Raven Crowking]

1. Items on your person don't take damage from magical fire unless extreme things happen, and even then, scrolls are way the hell down the list.

That is a VERY edition-dependent observation. And another example of things 3e got wrong (IMHO)....If I'm caught in a dragon's fiery breath while holding a scroll, the scroll should be the first thing to go up!

EDIT: If you want to bag on some of the boneheaded changes made in the 2e --> 3e transition, I've got no problem with that. Indeed, I have a long history of that......going back to when 3e was the new shiny, and bagging on it was not so popular. So much do I dislike parts of 3e (and 4e, and 2e, and, yes, 1e) that I have given up on Official Versions altogether! (If I did go back to an Official Version, right now it would be 1e).

2. Handy Haversacks and magical scrollcases obviate most of that danger, anyway.

Perhaps, but if so, they must be added to the cost in order to carry Hussar's point.


RC

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That is a VERY edition-dependent observation.

Given that we're talking about "wealth by level" and "creating your own scrolls," etc., I'd say its pretty obvious what edition we're discussing.

Perhaps, but if so, they must be added to the cost in order to carry Hussar's point.

Eh. A haversack's 1,000gp to make yourself, and is ridiculously useful for all sorts of things, besides.

Scroll cases are 1gp apiece.

I don't think these meaningfully move the needle.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Eh. A haversack's 1,000gp to make yourself, and is ridiculously useful for all sorts of things, besides.

Yeah, I just re-read it, and you're right; this is another example of something from earlier editions that has been taken out of its original context (and which can, therefore, cause problems in the game).

Scroll cases are 1gp apiece.

I don't think these meaningfully move the needle.

Sorry, you said "magical scrollcases". I thought you were referring not to ordinary scrollcases for magical scrolls, but some form of enchanted scrollcase, perhaps from a splat I didn't bother to purchase.