Task-based Skill Challenges (or "yet another SC system")

[Morrus]

I've been having musings on skill challenges the past couple of days, trying to figure out what I don't like about them. I find it hard to pinpoint, but I think it's linked to the fact that success is defined - to me, abstractly - as a number of skill checks from a pool rather than completion of specific tasks.

I realise not everyone feels this way, and that's cool with me. This is just me trying to do it the way I'd like it. I'm totally aware that plenty of folks have no issues whatsoever with skill challenges.

Anyway, I put my thoughts down in note form. Look at this as some hastily written thoughts rather than anything resembling an actual finished system.

A lot of it is just the presentation - how the info is shown to the reader. I understand that a regular skill challenge can do much of this very easily, but I personally find that info isn't communicated to me in a way I'd like.

 

[Klaus]

I think it needs a combination of things. A good skill challenge needs not only skills/DC to determine success, but also certain conditions/tasks/actions that grant automatic successes and failures, if the players can think of them.

 

[Morrus]

I agree. That can easily be inserted into the above article. As an absurdly simple example, you might add under "Side Tasks":

Trap Password: If the PCs obtained the trap password from the dying giant, they can use it to automatically complete Task #3.

​

Or as alternative solutions:

Disguise: With a Bluff check, a PC can convince the arcane trap that he is one of the giants. If the PCs have a way to magically alter their appearance to that of a giant, this will work also.
​

 

[Riastlin]

I'd XP you for the broccoli but alas I must spread some love first. Do you still take have half damage if you have cheese on the broccoli?

All in all though, I do like the idea. I must admit I sort of do this sort of thing anyway since I have always taken the approach of "If you can give me a good reason to apply Skill Y to the challenge, I'll let you try it." This goes somewhat hand in hand with the event based method you describe. It doesn't really matter if you pick the lock on the door or just bash it in so long as the door is opened for example.

The other nice thing about this approach is that you need not be tied to the "3 Failure" set up either. In the example you give, either the party gets into the vault before enemies arrive, or they don't. If the party flubs the first three attempts to unlock the door, they can still keep trying until the rest of the giants arrive if they want -- seems much more realistic to me.

 

[Truename]

I like this a lot. It turns the skill challenge from a dry dice-rolling exercise to something that has presence in the world. It seems like you should still use the mechanics from RC to balance the challenge, but this format to give it verisimilitude.

One criticism: with all the cross-references, the format seems like it might be hard to understand for even moderately complex challenges. Here's a rewrite of your example that tries to solve that problem by focusing on PC actions more than the sequence of events:


Breaking into the Vault
Moderate Level 10 Skill Challenge (DC 18)

Read aloud text:
The giants' vault is protected by a massive iron door. It's about 12 feet tall and 10 feet wide. Unfortunately, the ceiling above you seems to have been damaged in the battle and appears ready to fall.

Challenge Overview:
There are three problems for the heroes to overcome: the door, the ceiling, and the approaching enemies.

The door contains an obvious lock and a hidden trap. If the door is unlocked or attacked without disabling the trap, the trap triggers.

The ceiling above the door is damaged and will collapse in two rounds.

The enemies will discover the heroes in six rounds. If the trap is triggered, an alarm will sound that could cause them to arrive sooner. If the heroes get into the vault before the enemies arrive, they can lock the enemies outside.

Ideal solution: 6 successes

1. Examine the door to discover the trap
2. Study the rune
3. Carve the counter-rune
4. Pick the lock
5. Open the door (x2)

Events

• End of second round: Ceiling collapses. See "The Ceiling," below.
• End of sixth round: Enemies arrive. See "The Enemies," below.

Information Gathering:

History (DC 18) recalls the giants' traditional vault-making methods. Success makes DCs easy (13); failure gives wrong information, making DCs hard (26).

Dungeoneering (DC 18) examines the vault design and improves methods. Success makes DCs easy (13); failure gives wrong information, making DCs hard (26).

Religion (DC 18) recalls the giants' superstition about broccoli. (The trap will do half damage to anyone who has eaten broccoli during this encounter.)

The Door:
A massive iron door 12 feet tall and 10 feet wide with an obvious lock.

Examining the door (Perception DC 18) reveals the trap: an intricate rune carved at the top of the door.

Picking the lock (Thievery DC 18) triggers the trap unless it's been disabled.

Attacking the door (100 hit points, resist 10 all) triggers the trap unless it's been disabled.

Opening the door (Athletics DC 18 x2, requires lock to be picked) takes brute strength; it's a heavy door, seeing as it's a giant's vault.

The Trap
The trap is hidden. It can be discovered by examining the door (above). If the trap is triggered, the following occurs:

• Trap explodes. Close blast 5; +20 vs. Reflex; 8d6 fire damage, half damage to anyone who has eaten broccoli during this encounter.
• Alarm goes off. The enemies arrive in 3 rounds.
• Secondary lock activates. Requires Thievery DC 26 to open.

Studying the rune (Arcana or Thievery DC 18) reveals that it's a fireball trap that can be disabled by carving a counter-rune on the opposite side of the door.

Carving the counter-rune (Arcana or Thievery DC 18, requires the rune to be studied) disables the trap.

The Ceiling
The ceiling is damaged and will collapse at the end of the second round. When it collapses, the following occurs:

• The ceiling falls. Close burst 5, +20 vs. Reflex; 5d8 damage.
• Work becomes more difficult. Chocking dust fills the air and rubble and masonry block the door. All remaining skill checks take a -2 penalty.

Examining the ceiling (Perception or Dungeoneering DC 18) reveals when it will collapse and what will happen.

Shoring up the ceiling (Dungeoneering DC 18 x2) prevents it from collapsing.

The Enemies
The enemies arrive at the end of the sixth round. See combat encounter, pXX.

 

[Morrus]

Yeah; the presentation will benefit from a professional layout designer, and I can't help thinking that a more graphical representation will help. But the concept is kinda there.

What it doesn't work for is social skill challenges of course - well, it does with "a room full of diplomats who you must interact with to achieve a goal" encounters*, but not "you're talking to one guy" encounters. But I can't help feeling that the latter is best presented in an adventure as a paragraph of advice text to the DM as to what the NPC will respond to rather than an actual structured challenge.

*In fact that could be awesome under this structure. Make it a non-linear challenge. Getting NPC C on side gives a bonus to NPCs D,E, and F, but a penalty to NPCs A and B. Failing to convince NPC F results in him freaking out, which alienates NPCs A and C. Other checks which can be used to give bonuses towards specific NPCs. If you killed the goblin tribe, you get an auto-success on NPC D. The skill challenge is to win over half the votes. And so on... that would work beautifully.

 

[Quickleaf]

A lot of it is just the presentation - how the info is shown to the reader. I understand that a regular skill challenge can do much of this very easily, but I personally find that info isn't communicated to me in a way I'd like.

Did you see the skill challenge presented in the Red Box adventure? I actually liked the presentation of strategies there.

 

[Morrus]

I posted this in another thread as an attempt at a rewrite of a standard-layout skill challenge. I think it works well and is quite a good example of a real-use skill challenge.

 

[Balesir]

Nice thread. Adding sub-goals and consequences to the 'stages' of a skill challenge is something I've been trying recently, too. I think, despite the sub-title, this idea goes further than that, though, into interesting territory. You mention that some sub-tasks may take more than one roll to complete (best done for tasks that parallel the rest, to add suspense, I think); how about the idea of the whole thing as a "Non-Combat Encounter" kind-of analogous to a combat encounter? A complexity 1 SC (per the current, unmodified rules) is equivalent to a 'monster'; by extension complexity 2 would be an "elite" and complexity 5 a "solo". Mix traps, hazards, monsters, skill challenges and odds and ends like single skill rolls (minions?) and I think there is space to create encounters that are both as challenging as combat encounters and have a character all their own.

With the "trecking" Save My game recently I am hopeful that WotC is going to finally get a grip on this area. I would much prefer them to do that than retread existing systems that aren't broken or add unending new classes, to be honest.