How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[JamesonCourage]

Profession (Wis; Trained Only)

Like Craft, Knowledge, and Perform, Profession is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Profession skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill. While a Craft skill represents ability in creating or making an item, a Profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge.

Check
You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems.

Profession (Wis; Trained Only)

You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems. For example, sailor knows how to tie several basic knots, how to tend and repair sails, and how to stand a deck at sea. The DM sets DCs for specialized tasks.

Looks like, by the rules, you can use Profession for basic trade related things. If you can repair sails, I'd venture a guess that you can read some naval charts with it as well. In fact, the last sentence I quoted seems like it would fall into the "specialized tasks" portion.

But, by all means, continue to play how you like, even if it's not RAW. I certainly don't play by RAW. If you want to nerf the Profession skill for being overpowered, more power to you. Play what you like

 

[Fifth Element]

I have to say I agree that Blackbeard is a poor example of a fighter - rogue (at least muticlassed) does seem much more appropriate. This would certainly alleviate any the lack of skills associated with a fighter.

 

[Votan]

"Pirate" is a job description, like "assassin", and if you were actually able to do a "job skills" survey for them, you'd find they had members represented by a variety of classes...probably a lot of them multiclassed...with a healthy dollop of rogue.

Then let me say "Sailor in the age of Sail" (say the British Navy between 1700 and 1800) and the ship-board pirates that they fought. It's true that a ship would have a variety of different specialists on board (including marines and gunners which start looking more like good choices for fighter).

But the bulk of the crew is about making the ship work. The officers need to be able to navigate; a good period example of the skill set of a captain is William Bligh:

William Bligh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Consider this passage from the wikipedia article:

"Bligh had confidence in his navigational skills, which he had perfected under the instruction of Captain Cook. His first responsibility was to survive and get word of the mutiny as soon as possible to British vessels that could pursue the mutineers. Thus, he undertook the seemingly impossible 3,618 nautical mile (6,701 km) voyage to Timor. In this remarkable act of seamanship, Bligh succeeded in reaching Timor after a 47-day voyage, the only casualty being the crewman killed on Tofua. Several of the men who survived this ordeal with him soon died of sickness, possibly malaria, in the pestilential Dutch East Indies port of Batavia, as they waited for transport to Britain"​

I think, whether Blackbeard was an exception or not, that is the type of skillset that the naval officers of the time would be at risk of having. Not being able to compete with these skills would be a pretty unfortunate trait in a pirate who was going to have to evade naval vessels.

But that doesn't mean he can't be modeled as a Fighter/Rogue or a Barbarian/Rogue (or, even better, with the Able Learner feat he could have his first level in Rogue, the rest in Barbarian and just have been smart).

 

[BryonD]

I have to say I agree that Blackbeard is a poor example of a fighter - rogue (at least muticlassed) does seem much more appropriate. This would certainly alleviate any the lack of skills associated with a fighter.

True.

And I would readily agree that the fighter class itself does not nearly as readily fit a wide range of archetypes as many of the other classes do. The fighter fights and most archetypes do more than fight.

But the question: "can I do as many archetypes with the fighter as the wizard?" is a very different question from "is the fighter adequately balanced against the wizard?".

And since 3E was designed with the presumption that multiclassing and PClasses would round out archetypes, I don't think there is any problem with expecting that. And, when considered as a whole, it does an excellent job.

I'd be a lot less likely to play a L15 fighter than I would L15 Wizard. But not because of balance issues.

 

[billd91]

I have to say I agree that Blackbeard is a poor example of a fighter - rogue (at least muticlassed) does seem much more appropriate. This would certainly alleviate any the lack of skills associated with a fighter.

Rogue? I doubt it. Chances are he was an expert (or even aristocrat because there is speculation he comes from a well-to-do family) before embarking on piracy. I'd probably stat him up as a fighter/expert were I to make him an NPC.
But that's a question of art, not science. He can be done numerous ways and without any spellcasting at all.

 

[BryonD]

Looks like, by the rules, you can use Profession for basic trade related things. If you can repair sails, I'd venture a guess that you can read some naval charts with it as well. In fact, the last sentence I quoted seems like it would fall into the "specialized tasks" portion.)

Interesting that they actually reference sailors. I had forgotten that part, not having gone back to read it recently.

I particularly note the comment about standing a "deck at sea". Interesting considering there was just a question of the need for "balance". To me anyone with ranks in Prof:Sailor would be presumed to have "sea legs".
You could, depending on circumstances, require the +10 Balance Rogue to be making checks, which he might easily make but still must roll for, while the 0 ranks 1st level whatever sailor is simply not required to roll in the first place. To him it comes with the job. And maybe in a storm the sailor needs to roll, but gets a bonus that the DM needs to make up to fit the game.

And that is the real point. The rules are not intended to answer every question, but rather to provide the information needed so that a good DM CAN answer any question.

Ranks in prof provides very meaningful information.

 

[Fifth Element]

Rogue? I doubt it. Chances are he was an expert (or even aristocrat because there is speculation he comes from a well-to-do family) before embarking on piracy. I'd probably stat him up as a fighter/expert were I to make him an NPC.
But that's a question of art, not science. He can be done numerous ways and without any spellcasting at all.

Sure, I was working under the assumption that it must be a PC class, since we were statting him as a fighter rather than a warrior to begin with.

Since he's an NPC, statting him as a warrior would be much worse than a fighter since he'd have no bonus feats and the same piddly number of skill points.

 

[Hussar]

Yup. And obviously so.

[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]: I am still waiting to hear if you tell your players that their characters need Knowledge Geography to read a map.

I'm betting that you do not. I'm betting that you didn't answer that because we both know you do not.

That entire line of argument is wrong; it is pretty easily established that you can make a fighter (even if he happens to be a pirate) using the fighter class.


RC

Actually, that's precisely what the rules tell me. Stormwrack says exactly that. You are required to make a Kn Geography check to chart the course and a Profession Sailor check to follow the course.

Can we please refrain from calling each other liars and whatnot? For one, I'd rather not see this thread degenerate into name calling and get shut down and for another, you're much better than that.

Heck, I actually did answer you. This entire post answered you once already. So, how many times do I actually have to repeat myself?

 

[Hussar]

Oops, I forgot to give Edward his 1st level Fighter feat. Let's go with Weapon Focus (cutlass).

Blackbeard the Pirate
Human Fighter 9
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12
Hp 81
Feats: Skill Focus (Profession[Sailor]), Negotiator, Alertness, Skill Focus (Intimidate), Leadership, W Focus (Cutlass), W Spec (cutlass), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw
Skils: Appraise +2, Balance +3, Climb +4, Diplomacy +4, Intimidate +16, Knowledge (Geography) +2, Listen +3, Profession (Sailor) +5, Sense Motive +3, Spot +3, Survival +4, Swim +4

That's what you consider a Pirate Captain? Really? +3 sense motive? Yeah, he's going to get fleeced at every port. +5 Profession Sailor, gee, I hope he never really has to do anything important like avoid those reefs during a storm. Oh, right, he delegates piloting the ship because he's absolutely pants at actually doing anything nautical.

I mean, he gets lost 50% of the time with a survival of +4, even going by basic Core rules.

Of course, then there's those pesky things like trying to actually CATCH another ship. Because, if the enemy captain is a 3rd level pretty much any other class, he's got a better Profession Sailor skill than our captain here and will sail circles around our Good Captain. OTOH, the crew will see lots of action because our Good Captain can't sail to save his life and every pirate hunter out there can catch them with ease.

But, yeah, that's a captain all right.

Interestingly, if you actually look at the entirety of the Profession skill, it shows a bit more than JasonCourage would like to admit. Of course, with some people not bothering to actually look at the rules and posrepping, it's all the more funny.

Hypertext SRD[/url]

Profession (Wis; Trained Only)

Like Craft, Knowledge, and Perform, Profession is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Profession skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill. While a Craft skill represents ability in creating or making an item, a Profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge.
Check

You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems.

Action

Not applicable. A single check generally represents a week of work.
Try Again

Varies. An attempt to use a Profession skill to earn an income cannot be retried. You are stuck with whatever weekly wage your check result brought you. Another check may be made after a week to determine a new income for the next period of time. An attempt to accomplish some specific task can usually be retried.
Untrained

Untrained laborers and assistants (that is, characters without any ranks in Profession) earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.

Not really sure what you guys are reading.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Actually, that's precisely what the rules tell me. Stormwrack says exactly that. You are required to make a Kn Geography check to chart the course and a Profession Sailor check to follow the course.

Can we please refrain from calling each other liars and whatnot? For one, I'd rather not see this thread degenerate into name calling and get shut down and for another, you're much better than that.

Heck, I actually did answer you. This entire post answered you once already. So, how many times do I actually have to repeat myself?

Neither the above, nor the post you linked to, answers the question:

Do you require your players to take Knowledge Geography so that their characters can read a map?

It is a pretty simple question, which can be answered with one word: Yes or No.


RC