D&D 4E I'd like to put 4E on a diet!

Completely in agreement with OP. 4e started out trim and fighting fit, then time went on he got fatter and fatter. Time for Zumba I say.

My main concern is point 1. The game needs a fraction of the rediculous, stupidly large feat list it has, and power list, yada yada. I would LOVE to see WOTC trim the fat in this area.

Perhaps deprecate certain features, let the community know they will be retiring them and allow that the CB supports filtering out deprecated items.
 

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I agree completely.

I don't want to play Gamma World, nor do I want to play Monopoly. I want to play a fantasy RPG full of magic and high adventure.

The streamlined core mechanics of D&D 4e are fantastic. I don't want to go back to TSR-era D&D, as I much prefer the modern approach to game design.

Half of my group of players are casual players who only play the game because their significant others are playing. If it weren't for them, I wouldn't have a large enough group to play. I want to be able to give them a "Dungeons & Dragons Player's Book" that they will actually read -- the 368 page Heroes of the Fallen Lands is not that book.

The overly fiddly bits (marks, quarries, curses, condition tracking, one-round buffs, etc) slow down the game and some players get annoyed by having to keep track of them.

A smaller number of more distinct character options (feats, powers, etc) is preferable to a larger number of options that require some degree of system mastery to distinguish between them.

Thirty levels isn't necessarily too many, but it is more than many players will ever get to play through and having character options through 30th level in every book makes them excessively long.

I want to play a D&D game built on the elegant and streamlined core mechanics of 4e and which doesn't demand a high level of system mastery on the part of the players. I would like a more casual-gamer-friendly accessibility akin to BECMI D&D. But I don't want to play B/X or BECMI D&D, I don't want to play AD&D, and I don't want to play Castles & Crusades.

Of course, I can play D&D 4e in this manner, and that's what I'm attempting to do. The Essentials player books help with this somewhat, as those are the only means by which I can simply hand a player a single book and let them make choices for building their characters. As soon as I need to start referring them to message board threads or even filtering through the options presented in the Character Builder, it starts to become more work than fun.

I would love a more stripped-down, faster-playing core D&D game that focuses on the classic archetypes (fighter, wizard, cleric, thief) and races (human, dwarf, elf, halfling). Each class would have a limited number of very distinct customization options to replace feats -- I'm thinking along the lines of the class talent trees in Star Wars: Saga Edition. The core game would top out at 10th level, with expansion sets introducing options for higher-level play. Yes, I know this sounds just like BECMI with the benefit of modern game design. Other game expansions could introduce new character classes and races and offer expanded customization options for the core classes, essentially pulling back the curtains and revealing how the core classes were designed from their component pieces.

There is always the risk of alienating a large segment of the established layer base by streamlining too much of the core game. On the other hand, when the core game expects a certain degree of system master from the players, it becomes very unapproachable for the newcomer or more casual gamer. I don't have the data to make an educated statement about how to find the ideal balance between those two extremes; I only speak from my own preferences, which have moved significantly towards the "more approachable and casual-gamer-friendly" end of the spectrum in recent years.
 


For me, #1 in the OP is the biggest issue. Weed out the junk options. And, related to that, settle the maths question one way or another but get rid of the feats that are there at the moment.

I don't have a problem with combat length. I'd be happy with reduced condition tracking, provided that it didn't significantly reduce the tactical scope of play (as an ex-Rolemaster player who used to deride D&D combat as purely hit point attrition, it is the role that conditions play in 4e that makes it a viable game for me and my group).

I'm happy with the number of character build elements, but would be happy for the number of levels to be compressed provided that this didn't remove paragon and epic from core (ie have 5 level tiers rather than 10 level tiers).
 

For #2, wouldn't reducing the number of encounter and daily powers actually increase time in combat? Take away the more powerful stuff and the characters will be down to at-wills faster than they would if they had more encounters.
 

I'm not sure about #6 because monsters have been increasing in complexity (not decreasing). Especially as better design now allows monsters to function as they should, instead of being sacks of HP with a terrible single melee basic attack (I can't even recall many post MM3 creatures that are just a single MBA outside of minions). Solos especially are much more complex, but then again they are five monsters and deserve the attention.
 

Playing PH1-only on the player side would get you most of the way there.

You'd have to come up with some alternatives that you find acceptable for tracking conditions.

If you were using the old CB, you could create a Campaign and nix large portions of the available feats, builds, powers, classes, etc, then give the players the campaign file, and they could build compliant characters. As a way of handling house rules, it was inadequate, but if all you want to do is pare down options, it'd've been fine. Sadly the new CB doesn't have that sort of option...
 

I'd be happy if all the completely obsoleted feats were trimmed (paragon defenses, all the PHB1 +1 energy type feats with prereq's, older expertise feats, etc.).

Bonus points for getting rid of all the feats that give +5 to acrobatics if you're a vistani revenant (shardmind) barbarian who's fighting lycanthropes in the astral sea, though.
 

I'd be more keen on the glut of options if there weren't options that suck.

As [MENTION=73683]Dannager[/MENTION] said, I don't want to sacrifice power for RP thematics or interesting fluff.

I think I'd most like to see all the subpar options subjected to a CharOp "review" and upgrade - not to gold levels, but I don't want to see purple or red options. At all.

Failing that, I'd like to see them jettison the cruft from the game. It really feels like this record is skipping.
 

I must say that from these discussions I have gained the word "Cruft" in recent months. It has become one of my favourite words to attempt to work into day to day conversations with unsuspecting individuals.
 

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